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TOPIC: Choosing players for teams |
| bgc
January 25, 2011
11:20:31 PM
Entry #: 3645094
| I know that there is a formula for picking the teams at Purvis. However, every year there is at least one team in each age division that is "stacked" because of this process. There has to be a way to pick teams that is fairer to the players. How about having mini tryouts where the kids are rated (1-4) based on their abilities to perform the basics. Then the coach gets his son(s) or daughter(s). Then each coach picks from the kids in the order they were ranked. Each coach picks a #4 until all have been placed, then a #3 until all have been placed, and so on. Assistant coaches go to the team their child was placed on. Just a thought.
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| Chris Taylor
January 27, 2011
10:24:14 AM
Entry #: 3645775
| Having coached in every division from T-ball through 13-15 for more than 7 years I can tell you the process by which we pick our players at Purvis.
On draft day coaches meet together at the field. A board member provides each coach a list of players, grouped by age, for your respective division. So, for example, 9-10 boys would be on a list with 9yr old boys together and 10yr old boys together.
Each team is allowed (1) head coach and (2) assistant coaches, along wtih their children. The assistant coaches are required to be present at the draft to ensure teams don't try to cheat to get key players (this was a new rule enacted 2yrs ago).
So right off the bat the coaches, one-by-one, will announce their teams "locks"...meaning their kids, and all coaches will mark them off of the available kids list. Once that is done the draft is theoretically ready to start.
#'s are drawn from a hat blind. If there are 6 coaches there will be 6 numbers (1-6). Now in some instances some coaches might not have the same number of kids at this point. This could be due to the fact that I may have 2 coaches with 2 kids whereas you might have 2 coaches that only have 1 kid. So right off the bat we try to even the playing field by age. Using our 9-10 example above. If I have 2 coaches with 2 10 year old boys and you have 2 coaches with 1 9 and 1 10, then there is an age disparity right off the bat. So since we draft players from oldest group first you would pick before me, even if the number your drew was more than mine. For example...I draw #1 and you draw #2. I would be skipped over until all coaches had the same # of 10 year olds.
Hopefully by the end of the first round everyone has even'd up. So all #'s would go back into the hat and another draw would take place. This process will continue until all the older kids are gone. Then we move on to the younger bracket where the same process mentioned above is done until everyone is picked and all teams are even (as best as possible). The only time teams aren't evenly manned is when there are an uneven # of kids or teams. So if on the last round all teams have the same # but there are 5 kids left and 6 teams...and I draw #6, well then I will be the only team in the league with 1 fewer than the rest. Any late "adds" will go to the team with fewer players first until every team is on par.
I can assure you that the process of kid selection is 100% fair and transparent. I think where the perception of "loaded teams" comes from is this. More often than not the coaches (both head and assistant) are the ones with the better kids playing. While this is not always the case it certainly is the majority of the time. So if you have a team with (3) coaches and each of their kids are top tier then right off the bat that team is going to have an advantage. Not to mention that there are always VERY good players avaialbe in the draft (usually at least 6-7) so your odds of drafting at least 1 additional "all-star" caliber player is pretty good too. So a team could literally within the 1st round of the draft, and if they are lucky, lock 4 "all-star" caliber kids onto a 11 roster team. In that scenario you would have 40% "stacked" factor and the perception that something unfair must have happened.
The last thing I want to mention that does theoretically come up from time to time that might be cause for some concern is trading. AFter the draft often times coaches will trade players for one reason or another. This does not happen often but it does happen occasionally. I do not think this is what causes the "stack factor" as no team is going to trade away their best players anyway.
I tell you all of this not in attempt to discredit the "tryout" process but simply to shed light on the "draft" process that is currently used. Take care and good luck this season!
Chris Taylor
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| baseball f
May 24, 2011
11:47:12 AM
Entry #: 3732602
| what about season 2011 in 13-15? i do believe that one or more teams appeared to get more options on players than others (AKA stacking)on the front end.
why dont you have player tryouts for every coach to see and have two coaches only sibling lock ins on front end of draft and then do forward and backward drafting after drawing numbers. it can't get no fairer than that.
why dont the board step up to the plate to that idea?
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| Chris Taylor
May 24, 2011
2:49:04 PM
Entry #: 3732842
| That is true there were a few teams that were able to "lock" an additional player. However, this was only allowed by unanimous vote of the league coaches. And in both cases there was a majority vote of YES for the kids due to particular circumstances.
The real problem is that everything from drafting players, to assignment of teams, to selection of all-stars is done behind closed doors between coaches and board members. Parents have basically no visibility and that makes them assume something sneaky is going on, which in the past has certainly occurred. However, that is absolutely not the case now I can assure you! There is value to transparency even if the only thing it achieves is transparency...not really anything tangible. I cannot argue against that, I see the point.
While we do not do "tryouts" the method by which we draft players is the same. Now having said that a benefit to "tryouts" would be that all coaches could see the talent, or lack thereof, of upcoming players. I for one have never been good as far as incoming new players are concerned...for me its a crap shoot. Some coaches however scout all year long in preparation for the next years draft. So in essence, for those coaches, their evaluation was a season long "tryout".
In closing I, Chris Taylor, will bring up the "tryout" process at our next board meeting for next season. I can't guarantee anything as any changes would require a majority vote but I will bring it up for vote. Personally, I don't really care how we do it as I think it works fine the way we are doing it, but I also believe it would work well via tryouts....So we'll see. I'll post back to this forum with an update after our next meeting.
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| bb fan
May 28, 2011
2:30:52 PM
Entry #: 3735633
| I do know that there were teams pretty much locked in before the draft because the kids were talking about going to practice even before the draft in the 13-15 division. Also, if you look at the draft list and compare it to the team roster, there are some teams that have players that are not on that list and then a couple of teams who have 15 of the kids listed on the draft roster on one team....go figure.
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| Chris Taylor
May 31, 2011
7:40:29 AM
Entry #: 3736498
| First let me say that your claim that there were teams locked in prior to the draft is simply 100% false, unless you are talking about the two Forrect County teams or the Lumberton team. Those teams came pre-drafted with kids from their areas as they do not have a youth league to participate in. As for the Purvis teams no team was pre-drafted prior to the draft, I do not care what the kids were saying. I was there, I ran the draft and I know for a fact that did not happen!
As for some teams having kids that weren't drafted...your right. If you read my first post (the long one above) you'll see that when players signed up to play after the initial sign-up they were given to teams with the fewest players first. In this scenario kids could get on a team without go'ing throw the draft and thus not showing up on the sheet. We had kids still signing up 1 week into the season. In total I think we took on about 10 additional kids after the cutoff for signups and those names would not have shown up on the list.
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| BBFAN2
May 31, 2011
2:10:36 PM
Entry #: 3736793
| I've been through the draft as a coach in Purvis and the way it is done is as fair as it can be , but the only problem that I have is if all stars have already been pick for this year what does a kid with one of the highest batting averages and on base percentages on his team has got to do to beat out a coaches son for a spot on an all star team?
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| Chris Taylor
June 1, 2011
7:22:27 AM
Entry #: 3737276
| Let me start by saying that All-Star selection is done by the coaches of the league, the board has nothing to do with that. As our coaches for All-Stars are league coaches from the regular season they have the option of taking who they want.
Having said that All-Stars are a huge commitment both for coaches, players, and parents. I'm coaching 13-15 All-Stars and we started practice last night and we'll practice 4 days/wk through month of June starting games last weekend of June and at least first 2 of July. Because of the commitment required most coaches will take their kids as a pick, which personally I understand and can appreciate. "Most" of the time this isn't a problem as coaches kids are normally in the top % of players anyway. But when an obvious poor player gets picked, even if it is coaches child, it can be disheartening.
My recommendation would be to talk to the coach of the team and ask them if they took (whatever your concern is) into consideration. As long as discussions are handled like adults I do not know a single coach that would mind discussing this with you. It is when parents get personal and emotional that things can elevate quickly. So, I'd talk to coach and get his feedback on the matter
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| bb fan
June 1, 2011
11:17:56 AM
Entry #: 3737436
| We live in Forrest County and were told my child would be on one of the Forrest County teams...but as it turned out that did not happen. I thought all of the kids were placed into the draft and chosen. Overall, we had a great experience this past season and will definitely be back next year!
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| baseball f
June 5, 2011
7:47:18 AM
Entry #: 3739673
| If those who run the league and the participating coaches wants complete fairness and transparency then there should be tryouts and no kids locked in on front except two coaches kids. Let each coach grade the kids in the tryouts and draft as they see fit.
All Stars:
If you want that to be fair without coaches picking who they favor then you need to allow head coach to have two assistant coaches with their three kids locked in. The rest of the kids be picked based on a composite score of their batting average. That average is based on equal number of bats and then a composite score of (batting average, OBP and slugging percentage). That takes out the "friend" factor.
You will most likely have high resistance from some because some dads thrive on being the all-star coaches because they will play their kid in the infield regardless of performance.
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| BBFAN2
June 6, 2011
9:47:52 AM
Entry #: 3740250
| This would one way to decide but the heads of the league would have to figure all the numbers because they are never kept up on this site kind of makes you wonder if there is some reason behind not posting the stats.
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| Chris Taylor
June 6, 2011
3:17:42 PM
Entry #: 3740581
| I'll try to address both "baseball f" and "BBFAN2" in a single reply.
Team selection is 100% fair. The whole idea of tryouts would not alleviate what parents are calling "bias" or "stacking" or "cheating". Tryouts are solely used to evaluate players that coaches would otherwise have no idea about. Behind the scenes the actual drafting of players would still follow the exact same procedures as they currently do. Today our draft is performed 100% blind with a draw from a hat at which point a player is selected off of the draft sheet. The draft moves up through the available #'s and then back down, at which point another draw is performed and the whole process starts again. Please tell me how can you get more fair than this???
As for all-stars, there are NO locks...not even coaches kids. However, almost 100% of the time coaches do take their kids. But who can blame them they give up 1-2 months of their lives coaching these kids, plus 90% of the time the coaches kids are the better players anyway and would make it regardless if they coached or not.
Suggesting that kids should be picked based on their batting averages is only 1 part of the overall "selection" process. I can tell you that I have overlooked kids in the past with higher batting averages for a kid that is a solid pitcher or stellar infield/outfielder. Now don't get me wrong if your talking 200-300 points higher then I'd have a real tough decision to make, but almost 100% of the time that is not the case. MOST kids are separated by less than 100 points in batting but are separated by ALOT more with respect to fielding/pitching. And yes I know 100 point is A LOT in Major Leagues where you get 500 at-bats / year, but in Dixie Youth where you get 20-25 AB’s that equates to 1…maybe 2 hits. I cannot think of a coach that would overlook a player that was literally tearing the cover off of the ball for someone far less capable, because if they did they would be shooting themselves in the foot. A lot goes into a batting average at this level anyway such as:
1. How good was the pitchers they faced?
2. Did they get their hits with dinks over the infield or where they hitting with authority (real authority, not mother/father authority).
3. How good was the defense they were up against
4. Did the coach know how to register the “Hit” v/s “Fielder Choice” or “Sacrifice”, as the latter two are not equated into a batting average. I can tell you that almost 100% of the time the answer to this question is NO
Most of the time kids are overlooked because of a few issues:
1. They are lacking in a part of their game that their peers aren’t (hitting, fielding, pitching)
2. Player / Parent attitudes. I can tell you that I have skipped over kids because of this before.
3. Availability. Vacations, Mission trips, etc. impact a team and prevent a coach from having his whole team prepared.
4. Too many of a single type player. If for example the 11-12 year olds have 10 All-star caliber pitchers then the coach is going to have to overlook some of them in order to be able to field a complete team. You can take a maximum of 15 to All-stars with most coaches settling on 12-13 as substitution becomes a nightmare with more than that.
5. Overvaluation of talent. If, for example, I have 2 kids to pick from and one has a batting average of .500 (very good) and one has a batting average of .375 (good) but everything the latter hits is a screamer…then who am I going to take?
The bottom-line is that All-star coaches (x3) get to select their team and they can do so however they want. If they want to select a team full of bottom-rung players that is their prerogative, however I don’t know of any coach that would do this. Do good kids get overlooked sometimes that probably should make the team….SURE, I’m not naive enough to think that doesn’t happen. My suggestion would be to either coach next year and try to implement change that you are talking about or get involved with your team…and I mean really involved. I can tell you that having coached in Purvis for 6 years now and usually 2 teams at a time, I rarely have a parent actually speak to me, and I’m one of the nicest most outgoing folks at the ballfield. This includes asking if they can be of assistance, asking questions (which I’m always open to), offering recommendations, thanking us for our effort at end of season, etc. The only time we coaches get spoken to is when a parent needs to go off on somebody because their child got neglected in some way….guess what Coaches don’t want to hear it, especially when it is THEY that are putting in all of the time and effort. Same holds true for the Board of Directors as WE literally do all of the work at the facility including working concessions, ordering foods, equipment, mowing, scheduling, field duty before every game, facilities issues, weeding infields prior to season starting, cleaning bathrooms (yes they get cleaned), picking up trash, registration, gathering sponsors (signs), ordering and distributing uniforms, scheduling and paying umpires, scorekeepers, and concession help, and fielding A LOT of complaints from people who do not contribute in any way shape or form.
Lastly, player statistics on the website are there for the kids/fans to garner support and interest not only in your own child but others as well. It lets kids follow each other and it does generate a lot of friendly competition. ALL coaches are given a login and at the beginning of the season and asked to input their teams statistics after each game….as you can see very few do. Again, even if they did would they know how to do so correctly…most wouldn’t and numbers would end up being overly inflated anyway. Entering player stats is not REQUIRED of any coach and is there strictly for entertainment purposes only. The league or Board of Directors, who everyone loves to bash, has NOTHING to do with it….NOTHING. If you want to see an example of a coach that maintained their own teams stats meticulously all season long (while coaching two teams in different age divisions all while WORKING on the board) look at MY 13-15 team (LAN). If your coaches are lazy or incapable then perhaps you should get involved and offer to take on the responsibility of keeping books and ensuring your teams stats are kept up to date online.
The league is improving and we are trying to get new facilities as we speak. Instead of just complaining, as most folks do, we welcome all participants to get actively involved with us and let’s work together and try to make this a better place.
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