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TOPIC: MHSAA Division Controversy |
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| FanOne
October 1, 2012
3:43:54 PM
Entry #: 3987278
| So...Orchard Lake St. Mary's beats the D1 defending State Champs last week (Cass Tech). Then beats the defending D2 State champs this week (Brother Rice). What the heck are they doing with a D3 classification playing smaller community schools in the State Playoff structure? This is a total sham. Make them play a Catholic League Championship or at minimum play D1 schools in playoffs. Or, how about creating a new Bowl Game The Elite Recruit Cup Bowl? How many D1 college recruits does OLSM have anyway? Public Schools should protest a playoff match-up against these guys.
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| Oakland County Football
October 1, 2012
5:51:13 PM
Entry #: 3987411
| I couldn't agree more. In 2011 there were 5 catholic teams represented in D-1 thru D-5 (D-4 had no private schools) and of the 4 possible champions they crowned 3 with Cass Tech being the only winner over a private school. We all know that Harrison & Oak Park bring guys in too but the numbers over the years don't lie when it comes to the private schools and who gets to Ford field year after year.- But this will not happen in my lifetime so we might as well deal with it.
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| OAAscouts
October 8, 2012
12:46:42 AM
Entry #: 3990153
| I've always thought that an all boys school or all girls school should have to double their enrollment number for playoff competition divisions. Example... Orchard Lake St Mary, Birmingham Brother Rice, Novi Catholic Central, etc.
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| FootballFriday
October 8, 2012
8:09:22 AM
Entry #: 3990187
| From my understanding... they do double their enrollment to get ther division status.
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| OAAscouts
October 8, 2012
7:20:42 PM
Entry #: 3990552
| If that's the case than St Mary's has 463 total students, Brother Rice 668 and CC 1,030.
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| bert4
October 9, 2012
9:44:16 AM
Entry #: 3990780
| Yes, they do double enrollment. The numbers OAA Scout referenced are the schools' raw enrollment numbers doubled to put CC in D1, BR in D2, and OLSM in D3.
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| FanOne
October 9, 2012
1:51:28 PM
Entry #: 3990890
| Just sayin'...the fact that a school filled with D1 college recruits (not that they are actively recruiting themselves...wink wink ) has no business playing schools with a fixed population of athletes from the community that fights the soccer team for players and the innate challenges of pay for play. Talk about taking the whole idea of competition, and therefore interest, out of the playoff structure. I bet the rich parents over at OLSM would be flamed if their kids were put in this unfair situation. Way it is now, they have their own handy dandy illusory state championship locked up. Wake up MHSAA.
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| FanOne
October 25, 2012
6:29:03 PM
Entry #: 4000273
| What's up? Orchard Lake Saint Mary wins the Catholic League championship against the best college (and high school) recruits in Michigan and they are a playing what, some 5-4 community school in the MHSAA tourney? C'mon man...hey, those OLSM kids parents are golfers right? They should have to give every team they play from here on out like three touchdowns off the first tee (kick-off). What a joke...OLSM needs to get out of the the D-3 tourney or at least put a huge asterisk on their state champ trophy.
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| FootballFriday
October 25, 2012
7:05:00 PM
Entry #: 4000287
| OLSM may deserve to play the biggest schools because they are so good, but the playoffs are not set up that way. Its simple... schools are separated by student enrollment.
Are there really any D3 schools that arethe TRULY COMPETITORS out there that do not want the opportunity to play them and take them down to prove their worth? I think not.
Anybody that says, "They're too good, they shouldn't be there," really prefers a hollow victory, the easy road, and less competition.
Yes, it is true that the OLSM program is awesome (and I have no association with the school), and any D3 school bringing them down will earn the respect of being one of the best teams in the entire state (not just D3).
Competitors love a good fight. They dont decide rhat they're beaten before the game starts. OLSM can be beat by other D3 schools.
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| Richard C
October 25, 2012
7:05:05 PM
Entry #: 4000288
| Wait a minute, this is not the place to complain I mean I'm surprise that you could come against a great catholic community.......Wink Wink
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| sbat
October 25, 2012
7:12:32 PM
Entry #: 4000291
| Even though there seems to be a big difference, they have had more than their share of problems in the playoffs...
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| FanOne
November 5, 2012
9:32:05 PM
Entry #: 4007129
| STOP THIS SHAM! Prep schools do not belong in a HIGH SCHOOL tourney. The MHSAA must put an end to their biased tournament. Public schools need to write the MHSAA or boycott this rigged state tournament. Public school kids deserve the right to compete against local schools competing by the same rules. Not schools loaded with D1 prospects and kids recruited from public schools. Here is the story that ran in this week's Oakland Press regarding District Playoffs. See a pattern here?
"Defending Division 2 state champion Brother Rice blasted Oxford 38-6 and defending Division 3 state champion St. Mary’s clocked Auburn Hills Avondale 49-14 on Saturday afternoon, while Catholic Central stomped Walled Lake Northern 45-17..."
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| exchiefsprez
November 6, 2012
1:25:10 PM
Entry #: 4007475
| Last 5 year Division 1 Champions - Cass Tech, Lake Orion, DCC, Rockford, Dakota.
Last 5 year Division 2 Champions - Rice, Harrison, Lowell, Muskegan, King.
80 Public School Champions. I think the Catholic league should be arguing.
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| exchiefsprez
November 6, 2012
1:26:08 PM
Entry #: 4007477
| I meant 80%
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| exchiefsprez
November 6, 2012
1:29:53 PM
Entry #: 4007480
| Here is the link to past state champions. I do not think you have an argument. http://www.mhsaa.com/Sports/Scores/YearlyChampions.aspx . The catholic league will always be good, but they have not dominated.
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| Stich
November 6, 2012
5:30:51 PM
Entry #: 4007662
| ex,
I dont know the numbers, maybe you have some further insight into this, but what about Divisions 3-8?
I've always thought those schools have a "bigger" advantage at the smaller school level.
The thing about Rice and CC is that they have had the same coaches forever, and they are excellent coaches. If the same coaches were to coach at a public school, I think they'd have similar success. Maybe not quite the same, but similar.
I dont think it's as much of an issue as some make it out to be either.
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| bert4
November 6, 2012
6:43:01 PM
Entry #: 4007690
| Maybe force the likes of rice and St Marys to play up a division to compensate for their recruiting. I'm sure clarkston could give them a run for their money
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| FanOne
November 7, 2012
8:22:26 AM
Entry #: 4007849
| You guys need a math lesson or stats class. Or maybe you have been drinking the prep Kool-Aid. Look at how few Catholic Prep Schools there are and look at their advancement profile in the playoffs. CC, Brother Rice and OLSM advance through Districts and Regionals with ease year after year against hundreds of public schools that get pushed out of the way by these recruiting machines.It takes a school like Clarkston, Lake Orion, Eisenhower, etc. with an enrollment pool of 2000 to cowboy up with their numbers against the recruiting pool of these prep school football machines. Attend the winter semester OCC classes for math and logic before you comment further.
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| exchiefsprez
November 7, 2012
9:12:54 AM
Entry #: 4007874
| Fan One, you don't have to be an insulting ass. It is a conversation. I have respected your opinion, I would hope you would have respect mine. But, you decided to attack others because their opinion was not the same as your. I still don't think your opinion adds up. The private schools have only won 20% of the championships at all levels over the last 10 years.
I could have called you a big cry baby because your team didn't win and got smoked by Rice because your team doesn't have the mental fortitude. But, I won't. That would be petty.
So I will just say, your team lost. Get over it. It's just a football game. There are people in this country that are a lot worse off. Appreciate what you have.
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| Stich
November 7, 2012
5:42:01 PM
Entry #: 4008243
| Please go ahead and give us a math lesson. I would love to see what your math comes out to be. You can change CC, Brother Rice and OLSM with Lake Orion, Dakota and Harrison and it's the same story. It's not so much to do with "recruiting" as it is quality coaching developing quality programs. Please enlighten me to what these "recruiting machines" are and how they operate.
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| FanOne
November 7, 2012
8:19:23 PM
Entry #: 4008333
| Math and morality lessons follow...(see if you can keep up)...3 OC private schools: CC, Rice and OLSM. 1 common vision: win at all cost football machines where insiders say football is bigger than God (recruit, pay for outsiders, etc.). Appeal:(holy trinity) coaches, training, collegiate visibility/recruiting. Result: Divisional, regional and State championship appearances in higher proportion than any public school in the state. CC and Rice almost get equal with 2000-3000 enrollment schools in MHSAA but OLSM beats them and plays against 1000 enrollments so wazzup? Reality: Public schools enrollments are dropping, pay for play is a struggle unlike the rich kids and poor kid recruits that play for aforementioned schools. More Numbers: public school kids play both ways versus the rich kid$ that go one way and dress 80. No whining. The reality is that prep football is a bit too much like college football. Ergo (logic term) prep has no business in a high school tourney. OCC registration is open. Sorry.
Rich guys always get the prize.
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| bert4
November 8, 2012
11:02:40 AM
Entry #: 4008526
| It equals out because these schools suck at basketball. Cass tech smushed CC last year. Any team can win on any given friday in the playoffs
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| Stich
November 8, 2012
5:08:46 PM
Entry #: 4008736
| Where's the math lesson? Still waiting.
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| FanOne
November 8, 2012
10:44:07 PM
Entry #: 4008877
| Math Lesson:
Stich Intelligence < Box of Hair Intelligence
Just kidding Stich...go watch some hoops. )
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| FanOne
November 10, 2012
8:17:41 AM
Entry #: 4009571
| Well, well, well. More math friends...Brother Rice slapped WLW silly, 42-14 last night continuing the theme of this thread. Yeah, Grandpa Fracassa seems to have another loaded team of recruits and making their third run in the last four years into the Final Four rolling easily through the public schoolers. Stay tuned for more private school thrashing updates.
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| FanOne
November 10, 2012
9:58:20 PM
Entry #: 4009812
| The beatings continue at the hands of the prep school recruits. OLSM pounds Detroit East English 42-26 as the Eaglets make their annual trek through the Regionals. Rich guys always take the prize from the public school commoners. Stay tuned for more lopsided prep school win coverage in the MHSAA tourney!
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| FanOne
November 10, 2012
10:16:26 PM
Entry #: 4009819
| More butt kicking from the prepsters today as Country Day clocks the Grosse Isle public schooler 47-14. Stich what do you think...we gotta trend yet?
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| FanOne
November 10, 2012
10:24:56 PM
Entry #: 4009823
| Catholic Central pounds Plymouth 28-7. MHSAA considering mass and rosary as part of state playoff pregame with all the Catholics expected to attend state championship game.
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| FanOne
November 13, 2012
9:43:24 PM
Entry #: 4011409
| From KOSMO at the Oakland County Press...the big enrollment giants and prepster recruiting football machines make the MHSAA playoffs a snoozefest...
Same old, same old
We're at the state semifinal round of the high school football playoffs, and congrats to Brother Rice, Catholic Central, St. Mary's, Country Day and Lake Orion for representing the county well and being on the doorstep of Ford Field. But looking at the remaining teams, Kosmo can't help but see that one problem with high school football is magnified. Usually in other sports, there are different teams in the final stages of the state tournament each year. Look at how Lake Orion and Macomb L'Anse Creuse North were in the basketball quarterfinals last year. Also, look at the fact no team has ever repeated as Class A or Division 1 baseball state champion. In football though, it seems to be the same teams year after year, which might seem pretty boring to a lot of casual high school sports fans. Kosmo can't blame those people for wanting to fall asleep while following this weekend's action. Mind you, Lake Orion has only recently started to make regular trips to the semifinals (third time sinc 2008) while Country Day doesn't get there every year, so their runs are at least somewhat compelling. The same can't be said for Brother Rice, St. Mary's and Catholic Central. All three made the state finals last year and all have combined for about a million appearances in the state final in their histories. Of course, Kosmo knows that's a testament to their programs and realizes that what else are those teams supposed to do? Lose? Absolutely not and each team is different year in, year out. But speaking from a casual fan's perspective, it just tends to get stale and boring. After all, the state semifinalists in Division 1 are the past four state champions. It would be nice to see some new compelling teams and stories emerge every once in a while, but again, it just seems less frequent in football than other sports.
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| Stich
November 14, 2012
6:15:15 PM
Entry #: 4011811
| We have a trend.
Rockford, Lake Orion, Cass Tech would all do the same thing to Plymouth.
Muskegon, Lowell, Caledonia would all do the same to WLW.
Comstock Park, Menominee, Harper Creek would all do the same to Grosse Ile
Pick on Lake Orion for pounding Dakota.
Pick on Muskegon for pounding Midland
Pick on Portland for pounding Flint Powers (Catholic?)
Quit singling out these schools because you have some kind of agenda. The better teams win this time of year regardless public or private.
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| FanOne
November 15, 2012
7:53:11 AM
Entry #: 4012001
| Stich,
Your convoluted logic blended with the conjecture stated above, combined with your head in the sand outlook, is simply amazing. But you are right on one part of your commentary the better schools DO win this time of year. And the better schools, following the trend I suggest and supported by MHSAA playoff performance, are prep schools. And that is because they are recruiting machines and magnets for parents that want the best training and exposure that money can buy and the near certainty in the hoisting of the annual tournament trophy (see KOSMO's article above). As such,they are more akin to the system of college programs versus the local public schools they compete against in the state tourney. Stich, I would also encourage you to check YOUR agenda as well as the color of the sky in your world. For reference, blue is the color here on earth. Until then, stay tuned here for more reportage on the private school tourney thrashings.
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| LOfan-67
November 15, 2012
9:25:02 AM
Entry #: 4012040
| I thought Kosmo's article missed a few obvious points.The other sports notably basketball and baseball are far more dependent on individual talent. One pitcher or outstanding shooter can dominate a game. Football relies on far more pieces to compete. The common thread for consistent football excellence is coaching. That is why the same teams compete. Kosmo talks about repeat winners but really they are few. Dakota was the last in Division 1(06-07). Rockford(04-05) and CC(01-03) before that. The last 5 seasons the only repeat winners in the top 4 divisions was East Grand Rapids. In the same 5 years the big 4 (catholic schools)have won 3 state championships. They contend every year but they do not dominate the finals. In the last 5 years 8 teams have appeared in the Division 1 finals- only 2 have appeared twice (LO and CC). Rockford has not been there since 2008. Boring- I do not think so.
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| FanOne
November 16, 2012
10:41:56 AM
Entry #: 4012615
| LO FanYou make some good points...basketball can be more impacted by one or two strong players...not so sure that is the case with baseball though. As we have seen with our Tigers, you need to be loaded with nine guys that perform, a steady starting rotation and guys you can count on in the bullpen. Football is the marquis sport at Catholic schools. That said, Brother Rice (a perennial underperformer in baseball)has just built a $1.9 million baseball park that it believes will help them attract key baseball talent as is the case with their football team. But back to football. These Catholic schools can go 80 deep in varsity numbers.So yes, it is about numbers and as you should know, out at Lake Orion, where you pull from one of the biggest enrollments in the State with an astounding 2,751 kids, the numbers help that program and Clarkston (and Dakota and Ike) etc. Coaching is key of course, but it's big, fast and skilled kids that win games. And big enrollments create big talent pools as do recruiting and the magnetism of the Catholic schools.And those are the schools we see making the annual deep playoff runs.
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| FanOne
November 18, 2012
8:51:41 AM
Entry #: 4013508
| Good morning footballers! Guess what, it was another blitzkrieg yesterday by the hoity toity Michigan Prep Schoolers rolling through the public school commoners in the MHSAA tourney charade like a hot knife through butter. Here's the grisly details: Catholic Central beat Rockford 35-6, The Brother Rice cakes beat poor Wyandotte Roosevelt 31-3, Orchard Lake Saint Mary's pounded Harper Creek 28-7 (fourth year in a row in the state finals) and Detroit Country Day beat Saginaw Swan Valley 38-0. Stich, what thinks? We gotta trend yet? Stay tuned next week for more updates as the beatings continue and the prepsters compete (yeah, right) for the trophies!
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| OAAscouts
November 18, 2012
5:38:34 PM
Entry #: 4013803
| How come you're not counting all of the private schools in state final games?
Don't overlook Grand Rapids Christian, Grand Rapids South Christian, Grand Rapids West Catholic and Detroit Loyola.
That makes 8 private and 8 public schools.
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| FanOne
November 18, 2012
7:17:13 PM
Entry #: 4013848
| Good call OAA Scouts...interesting math isn't it? Also, let's not forget the big recruiting and magnet base of Cass Tech...it is really a quasi-private school...you need to be "chosen" (or asked) to go there...What an embarrassment it was last year for the high and mighty CC Shamrocks to be schooled in the 313 by the speedy Technicians. I think a letter writing campaign is in order...let's create two brackets for the MHSAA tourney...MHSAA Legends (all public schools with no recruiting bias) and the MPSC...the Michigan Prep School Championship...the best teams money can buy. Discuss...
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| FanOne
November 24, 2012
7:36:23 AM
Entry #: 4016108
| Well, it looks like the prepsters out at Birmingham Brother Rice can fill the trophy case again. Gotta hand it to the 5 time state champ Muskegon-ers, they gave it a good shot but the public school try just wasn't enough to the "near college try" of that recruit loaded football machine wearing the orange unis. The Warriors are loaded with blue-chippers and average 250 plus across the O-Line. And their student body wear geeky ties and alligator sweaters in the stands. But we digress. On other fronts, in a D4 battle of private schoolers, Grand Rapids South Christian handed Country Day a loss. Stay tuned here for more MHSAA prep school tourney updates!
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| FanOne
November 24, 2012
4:09:31 PM
Entry #: 4016201
| Oh boy. Those recruits from the 313 just schooled the Catholic Central recruits from a five state region. I guess you need more than 10...yeah...count em, 10 Division 1 recruits at CC to beat the speedy Technicians from the D. Long ride home second year in a row.
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| Stich2
November 24, 2012
5:37:32 PM
Entry #: 4016237
| Don't you love how LO is more competitive against Cass Tech despite not having a single Division-1 recruit.. and having this novel concept called a "school district", approximately six miles in diameter, in which they draw their players.
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| FanOne
November 24, 2012
11:49:48 PM
Entry #: 4016466
| Stich
The Dragons were a good team this year. But they watched the game on TV today like the rest of us. That's the point. Even with over 2,500 kids in their school and a huge pool to draw from, they are no match for Detroit's finest when you have Michigan and Michigan State recruits opening holes for Weber and giving pass pro for a rumored future D1 QB in Campbell. The front four for Cass Tech are without question the best in the business too. And nobody has the Speed of the Techies.
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| FanOne
November 25, 2012
12:25:40 AM
Entry #: 4016478
| It looks like we finally found out what it takes to stop the Orchard Lake jaugernaut loaded with recruits...why, hey it's another private school jaugernaut loaded with recruits )...specifically, Grand Rapids Christian and future MSU wideout commit Drake Harris that put up nearly 250 yards on the Eaglets secondary in a State playoff record performance. So, til next year, Bye-bye birdies. By the way, that red turf is soooo nas-tay.
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| FanOne
November 29, 2012
6:00:22 PM
Entry #: 4018251
| Well, well, well. Did your seer speculator nail this one from the start or what? Out of the 8 teams that competed for the Division I-IV MHSAA state finals, 7 were private schools and not one true public school won. The Prep schools have hijacked this event! Let's just re-name the tourney the "Michigan Prep School Showcase" shall we? The solution? Let the preppies have their little "bought and paid for" alumni reunion at Ford Field while the legit public school kids have their own tourney say over at Wayne State on the frozen tundra. That, or make the preppies compete in their own bracket. It is time. We need to get the MHSAA involved.
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| FanOne
March 28, 2013
4:28:20 PM
Entry #: 4042537
| Well, the enrollment numbers are out for the public high schools...and the private school recruiting machine is humming. Great time to re-open the most popular thread on the board last year on the rigging of the MHSAA playoff system that favors the schools that recruit...So, how will we petition the MHSAA to throw out the private schools and put them into their own prep bowl this year? Open mike time...
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| spartyboy
August 15, 2013
8:17:40 PM
Entry #: 4082996
| So here we go again. The MHSAA looks to have their heads in the sand on the "competition" issue. I guess they somehow kept the private school versus public school topic off the annual meeting agenda . Again. Put these director clowns in the circus or on the carnival midway for making the state playoff system a total sideshow. The recruits for the Catholic schools have been showing up in camps from a five state region. Same old same old.
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