 |
Author |
TOPIC: My newby's take |
|
| Gator25
December 7, 2006
11:08:40 PM
Entry #: 1826647
| First of all, I dont think that anybody is really trying to make an argument for playing with 8 or for playing indian ball. A situation arose during the playoffs where a team was allowed to play with 8, a good decision as far as I am concerned was made, and it is being discussed. I think what was said was more of a justification for your decision than anything else. While you make a lot of good points about the integrity of the league, this is a rec league that we play to have fun. Nothing more. Sure, it's competitive, but I dont pay my players to play and we dont get any endorsements. Under the circumstances, I think DBs should have been allowed to play and I think you made the correct decision on that.
Since 2000, we have played in 6 different leagues around the area and we really did enjoy playing in this league. I think we sparked some rivalries, some friendly, some with maybe a hint of not so friendly, but that's what makes the games fun and interesting. Compared to the other leagues I have played in, I think the umpires are fantastic in this league, and that is a huge part of what defines a league. A few years back the emba in st charles county was a great league, the umps pulled out and it went downhill.
Before we decided on Cahokia last year, we considered the msbl. I went to several msbl games and to several foy games and the level of play in cahokia was far superior. I watched the better teams in both leagues and there was a huge difference, at least in the games I saw.
The main draw I had and still have to the msbl is their hitting rules. I am not a big fan of the open substitution, but it doesnt terribly bother me. What I do like is the flexibility in the batting order. I don't like the batting the whole roster, cause that sucks when you get 12 or more there, but in one of the leagues we played in you were allowed to bat 10.
Sometimes change is not always a bad thing and can even work to improve a league. For example, the extra hitter rule that we discussed prior to last season, allowing a team to bat 10. I don't think it was presented all that well, but as a newby, I didnt really want to say much about it, but voted in favor of it.
Yes, I think this league is better than the msbl for a lot of reasons, but this is still a rec league, for fun and allowing a team to bat 10 guys will do nothing more than let an extra guy play. We all pay money to play baseball on our teams, and who at 30, 40, 50 years old wants to come out to a game a split time with another guy if you dont really need to?
Having an extra lineup spot to use could also enable a team to take an extra player or even two, expanding the roster and getting more players in the league. Maybe that would help cut down on some of the forfeits we had.
We used an extra hitter spot at show me games last summer, and it really worked out pretty well. It helped us manage a large roster more efficiently, you got more guys in the game and more guys were happy. Another advantage, say your starting SS pulls a calf muscle or 3B comes up lame in the playoffs. You could use the EH spot for them, helping your offense, and getting them back on the field sooner than if they had to play D.
Maybe it is just that I am a newby, but I don't see how the advantages outweigh the disadvantages or how that would downgrade the league. I would like to hear your guys input and why you guys voted no on this last year, especially since if you didnt want to hit an EH on your team, you didnt have to.
Hope this sparks some good offseason discussion. Fire away....
|
|
| the commish
December 8, 2006
4:11:37 PM
Entry #: 1827541
| Ah, pause, take a deep breath. I take great umbrage at calling this a rec league. Most Rec leagues do not last 63 years. We must be doing something right. We are attempting to play BASEBALL. We are not attempting to forge rules for lesser skilled players. Every team has a depth chart. If this was not true,it would not make any difference who started or how much they played. When I first came to this league 20yrs ago, we had : extra hitter , DH , run for the catcher/ pitcher. It caused major confusion and manipulation. Twelve years we streamlined and kept the DH . We went back to playing straight baseball. Three years ago we allowed running for the catcher again not without initial confusion. This was done so the catcher could get a breather before resuming his duties. The farther we get away from pure baseball, the more the strategy is reduced. Now, let's talk umpires. When my watch started 10yrs ago our umpiring situation was in a shambles. We had gone through a series of umpire associations with no satisfaction. I started with 4 umpires and a list of another 75. Most of the ones on the list laughed at me when I mentioned FOY. They were not interested in doing our games. We had no disiplinary rules to police our players and our league suffered. If we were to have umpires to do our games things had to change. I guaranteed them protection and support. Today, I have a modest list of 20 umpires who have respect for what I've done to make their task more enjoyable. I firmly believe they enjoy umpiring or they would not do it. It has gone a long way in helping word of mouth recognition of our league. They now recommend other umpires to do our games.
|
|
| Hoosier44
December 8, 2006
5:21:33 PM
Entry #: 1827639
| Commish, I thought the reason we can run for the catcher is so he can smoke a couple squares before taking the field.
|
|
| Gator25
December 8, 2006
7:08:42 PM
Entry #: 1827740
| Archie, while I applaud you for what you have done for the league, and I have been in your shoes, I have to disagree with you about the Rec league bit. I am not implying that you are not doing something right, because you have kept this going going for the last 10 years the way it is run now.
Looking at it from another angle tells me that the league survived and flourished for 53 years with an EH, DH, and runner for the pitcher/catcher, prior to you taking over. And this is not to take anything away from you, merely discussion, but how is this more than just a rec league???
The emba has been around for like 80 years and that is just a rec league. I dont know how long Affton has been around, but definitely ever since I was a kid. Heck, north county has been around for 50 years and that league is garbage, same with the cbl. You rip on the msbl...how long has that been around?
While Cahokia is every bit as competitive as any league I have played in, the players arent better, and that goes for myself. We were 21-10 last year without knowing any teams, how to pitch or defend and we spanked a lot of teams. Sorry, dont mean to sound like a ass, but it's true. Ask Dennis. The league we played in before last year, we started out 1-12 with better players than we had last year, before several players quit on us and we had to fold.
Again, not trying to take anything away from you or Cahokia, because we did enjoy playing this league and will probably play again, but to think it's anything more than a rec league, well, I just don't agree.
Every guy pays money to play baseball, nobody gets a paycheck, we get nothing for winning, there are no scouts, and nobody is going to finally get their shot at the bigs by playing in Cahokia. We dont practice every day when we arent playing, lift weights and train on the offdays (or offseason for that matter) like they do in high school and college. We are pretty much a bunch of old has beens that get together a couple days a week to play a game that we love to play. That, my friend, is what makes this and every other men's league around the area a rec league. That is not a bashing on the league, just mere facts.
I dont see it as forging rules for lesser players, and on my team, we don't really have a depth chart. Sure, I have my better players and guys who I will play in game 3 of the finals (hopefully different ones next year), but at least on my team, everybody plays and everybody plays as equal an amount as possible. Now, guys will have more ABs than others because they come to more games, but if it's your turn to sit, it's your turn. I dont start a player over another player every game just because he is a better player. If that's the way you run your team, great, but that's just not me. My guys pay the same amount of money to come to games and play baseball, and they will play the same amount.
For most of the year, I had right at 9 guys for most every game. As a manager, I hate every second that goes by prior to the 9th guy showing up. It always seems that somebody flakes or gets stuck in traffic when you have 9, never when you have 11 or 12. I would love to carry a larger roster, but I dont want 11/12/13 guys at a game. Allowing the EH position would allow you to play 11 guys, 9 positions, the EH and the DH.
It simply allows more guys to play, and not sit through a rec league game that they paid to play. We were involved in nine 10 run games, and a couple others were headed that way before I changed pitchers. That's nine times, nearly 1/3 of our season that we only got to play 5 innings and now all of a sudden, I have to split guys 3 and 2 innings. Who wants to come out and play 2 innings? I would certainly make it a lot easier to get everyone in the game if we could hit 10 guys. That is all I want. More playing time for my players.
I just dont understand how it takes away from the game, or downgrades the league in any way, or reduces strategy. How does an extra guy getting to play make anything less strategic? If anything, it helps you. Maybe your extra guy sitting there is a better fielder than the guy you would have to play because he is a better hitter, or really can't play the field any more, bad knees, whatever.
Not to pick on you, Archie, but you were the only one to respond, but we 10 runned you twice last year. What difference would it really make if I batted 10 guys in either of those games. Even the game you beat us, why would it matter how many guys I hit? Even if you choose not to hit 10, and you have a depth chart for a men's 27 and over league, what difference does it make to you if I hit an extra guy?
My questions to you or anyone else...
How does letting an extra guy play downgrade the league?
How does an EH reduce strategy?
Besides being globally opposed to any sort of change, what are the true drawbacks to adding an EH???
|
|
| rainorshine
December 8, 2006
8:49:19 PM
Entry #: 1827858
| I'll chime in on this one. You both make great points on many issues. Again, just my opinion for what it's worth.
No doubt that we are playing in a fantasically fun rec league. One reason it's great is due to the rules we play by. I say that, even though my team was allowed to play against the Black Sox with eight in the playoffs. Again, if I had paid a league fee, spent four months playing, I would hope a team of nine would beat a team of eight.
There is something about playing in a league where a lineup of nine with a DH is played. I have played MSBL, and the offensive lineup and defensive lineup is a pain is the ass. Ask Johnny Mu how much fun it is to catch a game in July, but not hit.
I don't know if we're supposed to pity the Gators because they started 1-12 last summer or be afraid of them next year because they've had a year to scout the league and prepare their defenses accordingly. You went 21-10 or whatever without seeing anyone play. ITS AN OVER 27 LEAGUE. If your strategy changes next year due to what you saw this year than you truly are over analyzing this league. The only thing I'll be scouting is how many buttons Randy won't be securing on opening day.
To Nickel, I think you did your best job of administrating the league last year. To you, thank you. I know you can't please anybody most of the time.
|
|
| Gator25
December 8, 2006
9:38:33 PM
Entry #: 1827911
| R/S...I think you mistook my statement. I am not looking for your pity or trying to get anyone to be afraid of us, and I probably shouldnt have made that comment. None of you knew us either so it goes both ways. However, playing in the league for years, you know who to play 3 steps over or when to put your second baseman in short right field. I guess I dont really consider knowing to hug the line when TR is up is overanalyzing. It's just giving me the opportunity to put myself in the best position to make a play and give my team a chance to win. Like next year, when you play us, you wont have to play your corners in with me up cause now you know I'm not gonna lay one down. Ha, ha, we can still have a little fun right?
You know, when I said I came out to a few games to check out the foy and msbl, it was actually your team that iced it for me. I dont remember who you played, Curley's it may have been, but Eck was pitching and I figured this to be the better of the two leagues, talent-wise. And I am happy with my decision to play in Cahokia.
You're right. This is an over 27 league and that is why I am curious why people are opposed to letting an extra guy play. I agree that the msbl rules suck, and that's part of the reason we didnt play there. Same with Affton...you are required to bat the entire roster if they are there. Stupid.
The last league we played in, we discussed the EH rule in some depth prior to the season. It was a new league, and we were hammering out all the details. It was voted down, and several of the managers after the meeting said they voted no, but didnt really care one way or the other. Every one of them said to me at some point during the season that they could have used the EH in a certain game.
R/S...just curious. What is your take on the EH rule? You seem to be one for some good discussion and I am interested to hear your opinion on the questions I asked.
And, Archie, I agree. You catch a lot of flack, but, from what I have seen thus far, this league is run better than many.
|
|
| Gator25
December 8, 2006
9:49:36 PM
Entry #: 1827917
| Another question, especially for Archie, but I welcome anyone else's opinions.
And please don't think I am stirring up shit or anything, because I'm not trying to, just discussion.
Dennis and I have both played with the EH rule, and I really think it is a good rule, and that teams would be satisfied with it if they gave it a chance.
What I dont understand is why you are so opposed to considering this, when it may be a good thing for the league and if it's not, it can be easily voted out the following year?
|
|
| rainorshine
December 8, 2006
11:17:29 PM
Entry #: 1827969
| Gator25,
First off, I love the hot stove discussion...
I hate the EH, here's why. Number one, I'm a sucker for the purity of the rules, despite the encouragement of the DH. Number two, I would really hate to show up, or even be drinking after a game and see team A with 10 hitters playing against team B with 9 hitters. I have too much respect for the game to let this happen, even though our team beat a team with only eight in the playoffs while taking the automatic out while scoring three runs despite the automatic out.
|
|
| Gator25
December 8, 2006
11:43:49 PM
Entry #: 1827977
| Thanks for your viewpoint and I can totally understand and respect that. I have no problems with the purity of the rules, and that was brought up in the last league when discussing this. That, ultimately is what was the deciding factor in voting it down. I can see your point a little about hitting 10 v 9, but if I was sitting there drinking after a game, probably with you, I doubt either one of us could tell the which team was hitting what without knowing beforehand.
I have no idea who you are, but I am looking at this more from a manager's standpoint who plays with all his friends. I hate to sit a guy who came to my kid's birthday party, even though he knows it's his turn, and I know he is ok with it. Still bugs me though. I guess ultimately what I am looking for is a way to get more playing time for my players. I would like to carry more guys this season, so I get more than nine at a game, and we will probably end up playing in a second league, which we have done in the past. I just wish we could find it all in one league.
What if we did this. For the sake of those puritsts, and I am one myself, what about going to 9 inning games? I think from what Archie mentioned about the field availability, it shouldnt be a problem with the field. We could probably do it even with what we have now. Start the weeknight games at 7, and go a little longer on the weekends. Umpires make more money, concessions make more money, and we get more innings, and have more fun.
People always talk about league parity, and what a better way to do it. One pitcher wont get you through most games, and you all know what that does to my team. That would help us carry more players and provide more playing time, and we wouldnt have to discuss the EH.
Would something like this be possible and would anybody be interested? I think it was RS that mentioned in another thread that you were all about playing more.
|
|
| rainorshine
December 9, 2006
8:43:33 AM
Entry #: 1828133
| I'm all for nine innings, but it does get pretty freaking hot for most of our season. I'm not sure if enough teams have enough arms to survive the season. I'm serious about that, you could have a few teams just absolutely dead on pitching halfway through.
|
|
| PlayTwo
December 9, 2006
8:58:18 AM
Entry #: 1828142
| Gator25, what, you don't get paid?
As for scouting, not only have you seen everyone for a full season and you can make your ajustments, everyone has seen your 1 PITCHER and will make their ajustments also. Watch yourself, those 10 run games might be turned around next year.
....by the way, it looked like you laid down on almost every AB against us anyway.
lol
This is great, love message boards.
On a serious note, I agree with both arguments on the EH rule. I do believe, if it is put in, it should be optional for a team to use or not. If I was to vote though, I would vote no.
If you are so worried about getting guys playing time, just show up with 8 like we do, then there is no problems with playing time. lol Sorry about that, couldn't pass it up.
I would like to say this, that game should have never been played with 8, but not forfieted either. All interested parties knew of 8 players on Tuesday, the game should have been scheduled for a different time. Enough on the topic, its over and the right team moved on.
....and if I can throw another change I like out there, for the purist, WOOD BATS.
By the way, Archie (aka Nickel) great job last year. You were more open and less stand-offish.
And yes, this is a rec league by definition, but the best damn rec league we will find around these parts.
|
|
| Gator25
December 9, 2006
11:17:14 AM
Entry #: 1828250
| I love it when some good innocent discussion turns into some offseason smack talk.
You figured out my 1 pitcher? I guess you are talking about JD, my 1 pitcher that posted a 1.83 era with 113 Ks on the season. 6 games with 8 or more Ks, 5 games with 2 hits or less? That the guy you got figured out? I wonder how well he would have done if you hadnt been able to make your adjustments. By the way, how did you and your team fair against him?
Just curious, and all in good clean, fun, offseason smack talk.
I think the EH has its benefits, as well as it's drawbacks that was pointed out. I am not afraid to go to 9 innings and go to battle with you guys with my 1 pitcher.
One of the best and funnest games I was a part of was a 9 inning extra game against the Cards between JD and Shleck (I think is his name).
I was planning on using him more in the other league we will be playing in next summer anyway, so I guess it's ok that you have him figured out. If we dont go 9 innings, maybe we can at least get in our 7 more often. Turn those 10 run games around next year? Good luck.
You dont really think my team will be worse than last year do you? We are already improved and havent even been to the cages yet. 9 innings don't scare me, I will have the pitching for it next year. Will you?
|
|
| Gator25
December 9, 2006
2:28:10 PM
Entry #: 1828398
| Archie, by the way, one thing that get lost in this thread was your umpires comment, and if it was because of you that we have the umps we have now, you are to be commended on that. Of all the leagues we have been a part of over the years, one of the major things that seperates FOY from the others are the umpires. While they are not perfect, they are more consistent than any umpires, as a whole, than we have seen in awhile. I didnt notice the strike zone changing too much from inning to inning, which is really all you can ask for as a hitter, and you dont find that in too many leagues.
|
|
| rainorshine
December 9, 2006
4:40:56 PM
Entry #: 1828487
| I am telling you that if we went to nine inning games, we'd have more 10 run rule games because of pitching concerns. Some of these guys wouldn't bounce back very well, or be very dependent come the playoffs, or be able to lift their arm by September. I do agree that wood bats would level that problem though.
|
|
| PlayTwo
December 9, 2006
6:30:11 PM
Entry #: 1828556
| You are misunderstanding the adjustment comment. It was for next year. If all we see is 1 pitcher we can make adjustments just like you are going to make adjustments againts all the teams next year, as you stated. I don't care who is pitching, if we see him enouogh we will light him up, and that goes for any team for that matter.
What was the score in the final game after JD pitched almost every game in the playoffs?
I sensed a little hostility in your last comment, I didn't mean to piss you off, sorry.
As for 9 inning games, I would love to play them. Won't work in this league though. There is maybe 3 pitchers in the league that would last the season. I speak from experience, have been to Phoenix the last 6 years and witnessed the strain on 9 inning games on pitching.
|
|
| Gator25
December 9, 2006
9:13:40 PM
Entry #: 1828671
| Hey playtwo, first of all, absolutely no hostility intended. You took a bit of a shot at my team I thought, and I am sure you meant nothing by it, and it was all in fun, smack talk, I can handle it. Makes the winter months go by faster if nothing else. So I had to shoot back a bit and meant nothing by what I said. The problem with a chat board is you can't see me sitting here chuckling as I am typing it. Feel free to lay it down all winter long.
That out of the way, my team has played 9 inning games for 5 of the past 6 years, and to do so, you would need some pitching. From what I have seen, not too many guys could go 9 in this league, but that is not necessarily what the intent is. Fact is, there are many teams that would have to find some more pitching, but also 4 or 5 teams that could do it with what they have now.
If you truly want league parity, this would be the way to do it. The team with the one best pitcher doesnt always win. You are forced to use at least 2 pitchers, and could use 3 if you wanted for every game. Yes, it will be too much of a strain on your guy if you only go into it with one or 2 guys to pitch. You would probably need at least 4 solid guys, maybe a guy or two that can throw in a pinch and just make sure you get 2 of those at every game. Wouldnt be that difficult to plan for if you knew going into the season what you needed.
I dont think it would decrease the 10 run games either, and that's okay. It should be roughly the same, maybe a few more but at least those games will go 7. And if you are on the short end of the stick, you were planning on playing 7 this year anyway, so there is really no difference. Where the difference would be is between two evenly matched teams, when the games would go the full 9, and for those games the pitching should equal the hitting for the most part. Agree?
Unless you are sitting there with one or maybe two starters, I dont think it would be that big of a deal with strain. Just dont throw your guy 9 innings every game, and find a couple pitchers if you need one.
Advantages...can carry a larger roster with the extra pitchers, and they can fill in when you need them to make 9, less forfeits. Also, more innings makes it easier to split time with guys, if that's the way you choose to run your team, also allows you to carry more guys.
More innings, more baseball, more at bats, more pure, and more balanced.
Not sure of the disadvantages, maybe time. Adds a bit on to games, and I dont know about the field availability, but it sounded possible last I heard.
|
|
| Gator25
December 10, 2006
10:18:23 PM
Entry #: 1829846
| playtwo, I didnt blow off your other comment, just havent had time to respond yet. 8-0 is the answer to your question. All the runs were pretty much earned too, may have been some plays we could have made, not necessarily should have made. The 3 run bomb by Kraus didnt help much either. But yeah, they smacked him around. Thing about JD is he can actually pitch that much, always has. Not that I want to, but last year I had to. My number 2 guy got kicked off the team 10 games in, and that hurt, then another with shoulder surgery, and I was focked. But, with JD, he is just one of those freaks and fortunately I got him, the good and the bad, and I'll take it. Weird thing is that he actually had more rest before that game than the previous 3, and they were gems, 3 earned.
Do I think he would have been better had he not thrown pretty much every game we had? Probably. Hopefully, if all goes well, he won't have to pitch that much next year.
As far as the 9 innings goes, what are your thoughts? RS seems concerned about other teams pitching. I know DBs has enough, so do the A's, Cards, and we should next year as well. Dennis probably does too, chuckle, numbers-wise at least, and I'm sure the Red Sox could get by with what they have as well.
The msbl went to 9 innings for next year and, as a whole, our pitching is FAR superior to theirs, in my opinion.
Archie, this may be a good time for you to join back in. What are your thoughts and what about everybody else? 113 views and only 3 people with input? Does anyone else have an opinion on the matter, for or against?
|
|
| PlayTwo
December 10, 2006
11:35:44 PM
Entry #: 1829905
| Just to clarify, I am not ripping on JD, We would take him in a second.
I will have to get back to you on the 9 inning games in the MSBL, I rather dought they are doing that for the season. The memorial weekend tournament yes, not the season though.
If we play 9 we play 9. Cuts into drinking time though. Would love to see wood bats, that would be my priority.
|
|
| chiefsbaseball44
December 11, 2006
6:14:57 AM
Entry #: 1829994
| MSBL did go to 9 innings for 2007. I am in favor of the EH and going to 9 innings.
|
|
| 4 man OF
December 11, 2006
9:05:32 AM
Entry #: 1830169
| Dennis, you may not want to worry so much about the extra hitter, and push for the extra fielder!!
|
|
| FOY mgr
December 11, 2006
9:44:46 AM
Entry #: 1830243
| Nice contributions by all. I believe 9 innings should be the priority. Wood bats gets awfully expensive.Indifferent about the EH.JD is filthy in any league.Seriously, he doesn't bathe.How about 9 innings or more games on the schedule?
|
|
| chiefsbaseball44
December 11, 2006
11:53:03 AM
Entry #: 1830407
| I would take the extra fielder . Wood bats no way
|
|
| PlayTwo
December 12, 2006
1:14:25 AM
Entry #: 1831645
| I got the info on the MSBL 9 innings for 2007 season. This is a little misleading, yes they are going to 9 inning games but you will probably never see one. There is a 2hr 15min time limit. You all know having played in these leagues in St. Louis, it takes every bit of 2 hrs to play 7.
@ $300.00 to $400.00 for an aluminum bat now-a-days that if you are lucky get 2 seasons out of, I could buy in bulk 10 wood bats. I don't think price is an issue. The big picture hear is most are afraid to go to wood because they would really see how good (bad) a hitter they are.
Wood bats and Rawlings 100 series balls would improve on what is already the best mens league around.
|
|
| Eck
December 12, 2006
2:54:59 AM
Entry #: 1831666
| I have some time between battles so I thought I would chime in for a few comments.
1) Extra Hitter – I am against it. There are several reasons why I don’t like the EH but I have two reasons that are at the top of my list. One, I am a traditionalist. The game has been played the way it has been played for a long time. In fact, I would like to see the DH go away, but I understand why that will not happen. I also understand this is a rec league and the reasons for the EH mentioned by Gator25 are valid, but I don’t think we should change the rules in this league to accommodate that change. I believe players in this league enjoy the fact that we try and mirror the rules as they are played in the Show. I think most players respect the game and feel a sense of pride that we still try and play the game the way we played it growing up. There are other leagues you can play in that “relaxes” the rules a bit -- which are great for those who want to play that type of baseball. I also feel that proposing what can be construed as a minor rule change by adding the EH may also lead to other changes down the road. I think if we get too far away from the meat and potatoes of the “game”, players will lose respect for it.
Second, as a pitcher, I enjoy the mental challenges of facing the best hitters in a lineup. If a team bats more then nine, I know I won’t face those hitters as often. Selfish reasons, but a reason none-the-less. So from a personal standpoint, the fewer the hitters the better.
2) Wood Bats – I am a huge proponent of this rule change. I played three years in a wood-bat league, and it was an exciting three years. This is where the game is at its purest. There are a couple of reasons why I think wood bats are better. First, it is the way the game is supposed to be played (again, my traditionalist view). Second, it exposes the great hitters from the not so great hitters in the game. Hitters more often then not must hit the ball on the sweet part of the bat to get a hit. Bloopers to the outfield with an aluminum bat tend to be pop ups in the infield with wood bats. Also, there’s nothing better then the feeling of hitting the ball with a good piece of maple on the sweet part of the bat. The cost of wood bats may be minimally more expensive, but if you buy bats at team rates it’s roughly $40 for an ash and $60 for a maple. A good aluminum bat runs $200+. We can all do the math. On a comparison scale, I’ve seen guys use the same maple all season (good hitter) and another go through about 10 ashes (bad hitter) in a 60 game season. I think we should try it a year and if the consensus is to switch back to aluminum, we do. But, I think given the chance most players will enjoy it.
3) Finally, thanks to everyone for humoring me with all of these “discussions” while
I am 7,000 miles away. It’s great stress relief!
|
|
| Gator25
December 12, 2006
10:57:39 AM
Entry #: 1832078
| Eck, I am just happy to do my part to provide you with some entertainment. Plus, even though you are 7000 miles away, it's refreshing to see someone else join in the discussion.
As for the EH, I am a bit less in favor of it now after reading all the other posts. I completely understand and respect the "purist" point of view, as I too, am in favor of playing the game as closely as possible to mlb rules. The only thing I am trying to accomplish here is more playing time for my guys. I also can see Eck's take on the 10th hitter, though I do believe that my 10 hitter would give you some fits on the mound. I do wish we could have faced you this summer, not that I am calling you out or anything, but like I said, it was you on the hill when I decided to play in Cahokia. I am all for competition.
I am personally not in favor of wood bats, though I am not completely against it. I would vote no on that, but it is fun to play with wood. I havent done it much, but when I have, I have enjoyed it. I dont think that switching to wood would do as much as some guys think about bringing the parity to the league. Yes, it will cut down on bombs, and will cut down on the "aluminum bat hits," but I dont think it would do enough to bring the games closer. If you look at the blow out games in the league, it's not because a team hit 5 or 6 bombs in a game, it's because defenses give teams 5 or 6 outs in an inning. Whether it's hit with wood or aluminum, if you can't catch it, runs will still pile up the way they always have.
I also think price would be an issue for me. When I buy a good aluminum, it will last me several years. I usually tire of it, buy a new one, use it for awhile and then go back to my old one anyway. I'm not sure if I am considered a "good hitter or bad hitter", but I am sure I would break my share of bats. I dont think just because we dont throw as hard that more bats wont be broken. I think a good inside fastball with some movement will break these bats even with the decreased velocity, and once the "good" pitchers in the league figure that out, we will have splinters all over the field. I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion on wood. That being said, if any of you guys want to play a wood bat game, outside of the regular schedule, we would love to play.
Plus, if we switch to wood, it would ruin Gurkin's ex-wives portfolio as they all own stock in Easton. And we all know that affects like half the Illinois population.
I think the best thing we could do is go to 9 innings. We wouldnt need to discuss the EH, because there would be plenty of playing time to go around. Short inning games will get at least 7 innings in. Heck, and I know this is my problem and not yours, but I have guys driving from St Charles and even as far as Warrenton, and that would make it more worth their time to make the drive. You will go through some pitching in a game, bringing parity to the league, and the best TEAM will win, not just the team with the best PITCHER. When you do get the evenly matched teams, and the games go 9, it will just be flat out more fun.
I agree with playtwo about the msbl. It will never go 9 with that time limit. But, I think if we did go 9, we would need some sort of time limit, 3 hours would probably be good. Most of our games last season, whether they went 5 or 7, didnt take much longer than 2 hours.
We could move start time of the weeknights to 7, and do a 10, 1:15/1:30, and 4:30 on the weekends, something to that effect.
Still havent heard from anybody else on this, including Archie, which would be nice. Is this a DB's/Gators message board??
|
|
| Gator25
December 12, 2006
11:01:32 AM
Entry #: 1832085
| And, by the way, with the exception of last year, we have played leagues every year since 2000 that play 9 innings. It's not that big of a stretch.
|
|
| chiefsbaseball44
December 12, 2006
3:54:17 PM
Entry #: 1832632
| I guess my 2 posts don't count because they weren't small books
|
|
| gator18
December 12, 2006
4:57:06 PM
Entry #: 1832718
| I could be called a slappy hitter and need all the help aluminum can give. I bought a Reflex 2 years ago and still use it along with half our team.price: 90 dollars. It is the individuals decision to buy a used z2k on ebay for 550 bucks. I would not do this but I would love to use the stick. Wood breaks too easily, case closed to me.I would love to see 9 innings. You need to be very specific in the rules if there is to be a time limit.(finish the inning,last at bat type stuff)I see that as a source of some screaming in July.
|
|
| Gator25
December 12, 2006
5:24:05 PM
Entry #: 1832761
| Dennis, sorry for skipping over those insightful posts. They really have me in some deep thought and I am trying my best to formulate a response. But seriously, where is everybody else, managers, players?
|
|
| the commish
December 12, 2006
6:36:43 PM
Entry #: 1832873
| Here we go, I delayed posting so as to compose some facts. First of all I want to weigh in on my opinions. No to the EH, no to 9 inning games, no to wood bats, and no changing game times. Keep in mind one team one vote.
We have always played MLB rules or as close as possible. The dh was adopted in 1973 at the MLB level and shortly thereafter so did FOY, thus adopting American League rules. It is something our level needs to help pitching stamina and getting an extra guy in the game. Oh! no! I said it the extra guy, which most teams don't have or don't utilize anyway.
The EH was a product of the early 80's as the proliferation of softball exploded. It was adopted by FOY. In our version he was supposed to just hit and not be allowed as defensive substitution. That did not always happen. Creative player changes during the game caused convoluted line-ups and confusion.
The nine inning game, time length, and umpires have a direct corollation. Most teams don't have enough pitching to sustain 7 innings, let alone nine. Where does the pitching come from when we get into back to back make-up games. We were fortunate weather wise this past summer. We presently dont have time limits on games and that is baseball, a timeless game. The present umpires have agreed to this format. If you are worried about 5 inning games, we could eliminate the mercy rule so you could pound a team for two more innings.
The present time slots we have work well with the umpire group we use. I have morning umpires on weekends who do double-headers after our games. They do Mon-Clair, American Legion, high school ball in the spring and jr high in the fall. This does not take into account the other sports they officiate. They have to be allowed time for travel between events to make this work. Believe me when I tell you I want the best I can secure for our league, but we are not the only game in town.
Nine inning games would also affect how long people stay after games. The baseball is reasonablly priced because concessions help defray operating costs. The facilities offered ie; bathrooms, fenced in area, shade trees and picnic benches are not afforded everywhere. This is all offered by a dying American Legion post with 48 living post members. Think about that all you good Americans the next time you sneak food or drink into the park.
Anyone who wants to start night games at 7 o'clock needs to stand at 2nd base, 1st base and right field. The time was changed some twenty years ago because of the sun angle at that time. Besides, certain teams need the half hour to secure that ninth player.
Wood bats would work only if everybody got into their ass pocket instead of using someone elses bat. I do agree it would eliminate the "cheap" aluminium bat hit.
|
|
| chiefsbaseball44
December 12, 2006
7:24:08 PM
Entry #: 1832948
| No sugarcoating Arch tell us how you really feel. All kidding aside these are very good points that all of us didn't realize. i just found out MSBL is not going to 9 innings their umpire crew wanted too much money.
|
|
| PlayTwo
December 12, 2006
8:15:34 PM
Entry #: 1833011
| As much as I hate to say this but.. I not only agree with Archie but he is right on all issues (EH, 9 innings, game times, and possibly wood bats). Though I still would love to see wood bats and Rawlings 100 series balls. But you can't always get what you want. I'm just happy to have a competitive league to play in.
Just a little side not on wood bats, they don't break that easy once you learn to hit with them.
|
|
| BigSugar
December 12, 2006
9:27:18 PM
Entry #: 1833084
| The only way to do 9 innings is with wood bats. If we play with wood bats, we will have a lot of pitcher's duels. That would make for good and fast games. It would also make all HR's legit. The league is already dominated by hitters. Why add an extra? If you can't hide somewhere in the field, then you can't bat.
PS - my 5 month old baby bought me a new 35" DiMarini for Christmas. She's a keeper.
|
|
| Gator25
December 12, 2006
9:52:12 PM
Entry #: 1833112
| Archie, thanks for your input. It would have been nice to know that about the umpires, but if 9 innings won't work for them, it can't work for the league. From what I have seen, umpires are probably the most important thing when it comes to integrity of a league. If the umpires dont have the extra time to accomodate 9 innings, well case closed I guess. Trust me, I know we aren't the only game in town, as we have played in most of them.
That being said, and please don't think I am arguing here, let me play devil's advocate simply for the entertainment of our friend overseas...
I understand where everyone was coming from about the EH, and like I said before, I have swayed my position on that a bit. I can see the purists aspect of that and respect that, but I still would like to play more. The EH rule will only fail if you let it (you in general as a league).
As far as the 9 innings goes, and if the umps are out it doesnt matter, and here you go Eck, but this is the second time now that someone has brought up the point about other team's pitching. 225 posts and not one team has mentioned anything about their own pitching. So, is other people's pitching really a problem?
In our other leagues, when games were rescheduled, they were not rescheduled on back to back days, which I actually thought was nice. They were scheduled as a DH and you only had to get your team there 1 day, not both weekend days. I hate time limits and think they are stupid, but without it, and please note chuckle chuckle, I figured you would have said 9 innings would take too long. Looks like I guessed wrong, lol. I dont think lifting the mercy rule is the answer either, because in many cases it becomes a blowout due to pitching, and if that's the case, it's no fun for either team.
I dont think how long people stay after games should really affect it. Isnt the reason we come out in the first place to attempt to play BASEBALL. And I have no complaints about the facilities, as long as that doesnt include that damn alarm that goes off or the occasional gunshots in the background, lol.
I do think the extra half hour is important, and the extra 15 minutes on top of that came in handy for me more than once last year. I have heard several people joke about showing with 8, or trouble with the 9th guy getting there on time, and that is part of the reason that I want to find more playing time. I would like to carry a larger roster so that I am not in that position as much next year. More innings or more games or whatever forces teams to find more players, which increases the chance that you will get at least 9 guys to a game, and when you get 12 you will have more than enough playing time for them.
Whether we play 9 innings with no DH using wood bats, no night games, wearing baggy pants, as pure as you can get, it still sucks if one team only shows up with 8 guys.
And I agree, I am happy to have a competitive league to play in, and while no league is perfect, this one is better than most.
When the fock is the 1st game???
|
|
| gator18
December 13, 2006
10:02:11 AM
Entry #: 1833541
| Archie makes good points. We barely made 9 starting at 730 and using the 15 minutes a couple times. Maybe scheduling 4 or 5 more games would satisfy everyones jones for more baseball.Time limits are gay(no offense Ike). Also, if there is a way to avoid having a MONTH off between regular season and playoff games, that would be cool. In response to a previous post, I didn't see any HRs that were cheap. If you hit it that far, you deserve to trot. Agreed that this is the premier league for what we are aiming to accomplish(competitive ball,beer after the game, wife and child escape).I also know of a new place we plan to hit.It is called Big Hitter on Tenbrook next to Fox High School. I believe you are able to hit real baseballs out of their machines.# is 636 296 9100.
|
|
| BigSugar
December 13, 2006
11:50:46 AM
Entry #: 1833708
| Hey Eck, get back to work! You should post some of your desert ball winter league pics on the forum.
|
|
| Gator25
December 13, 2006
9:08:08 PM
Entry #: 1834597
| desert ball....I bet they dont have those nice shade trees.
|
|
| Eck
December 14, 2006
12:03:49 AM
Entry #: 1834836
| Shade trees? How about just trees? With all the sandball I've been playing the league better look out next year for the first left-handed shortstop. With the speed in this league, I can turn two with the best of them...
|
| gator 18
December 14, 2006
7:29:55 AM
Entry #: 1835016
| Dude I don't even know you but stay safe over there.
|
|
| Gator25
December 15, 2006
8:45:14 AM
Entry #: 1836546
| Archie, any idea on how many teams we will have this year? Losing or picking up anyone??
|
|
| the commish
December 15, 2006
4:59:23 PM
Entry #: 1837154
| There will be no Black Sox team in 2007. I have had inquiries from two potential teams. I have informed both of the criteria that needs to be met to be considered. They also have been apprised that we need only one team, provided everyone returns.
Some posts expressed a desire to play more games. This could be done by using a 5:30 slot on weekends. The 10am slot on Saturday would be reserved for make-up games. There cannot be games on Monday {post closed} or Friday. There most likely will not be an American Legion team this year. All things could change if they field a team.
|
| moo
December 16, 2006
1:36:20 AM
Entry #: 1837508
| no black sox? It's like I told Eck before he left 'the first kill's always the hardest'
|
|
| chiefsbaseball44
December 17, 2006
7:26:12 AM
Entry #: 1838365
| Who are the 2 potential teams ?
|
|
| the commish
December 17, 2006
8:37:00 PM
Entry #: 1839078
| The identity of the potential new teams shall remain unknown at this time. We don't want to get the cart before the horse. The one team has scouted our league and professes they will have no problems handing out lessons. As we all know, that is the talking part.
|
| Gator18
December 18, 2006
12:07:39 AM
Entry #: 1839245
| Ok, now you HAVE to let us know who these badasses are.
|
|
| D. Scott 11
December 18, 2006
9:09:09 AM
Entry #: 1839487
| I have enjoyed this little discussion, thought it might be time to chime in with my takes...
EH -- NO, this is not slow pitch softball
9 innings -- NO, this is already a hitter dominated league with minimal pitching, why kill what arms there are left? Not to mention it is hard enough to convince the women to cut us loose for 3 hours, why test it by making it 4 or 5? Also, the Legion Post might shut down if DB's and the Cardinals had an hour less to drink after the games...
Wood bats -- What do you think a pitcher's answer would be to this? Get it done yesterday...
One of my philosophies...If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But a possible solution to the playing time issue could be Re-Entry...We use it at the HS level and it works pretty well at getting a guy some AB's or defensive innings without crippling your bench in case of need. We already have Re-Entry in the case of injury. Also, if you have a guy with a bum wheel, you can pinch run without losing his bat in the line-up...I know making moves is part of the game, but not all teams have one guy calling the shots...Usually it becomes a case of too many chiefs and not enough indians...
Of course this would be 1 Re-Entry just for starters in the original line-up...Most of the umpires in the league have HS experience so that would not be much of an adjustment...
Just a thought...
|
|
| Gator25
December 19, 2006
4:12:13 PM
Entry #: 1841830
| "Usually it becomes a case of too many chiefs and not enough indians..."
lol, Darren, you trying to get rid of the Chiefs???
You know, you bring up a great point to the 9 inning debate. That sure would hurt my "come on, honey, it's only a 7 inning game" argument to play more games if we did go to 9.
However, I am fairly disappointed that you didnt lump the Gators into the whole drinking after the game comment. We spent many a late night/early morning in Cahokia. Though, Tim was a bit pissed that we knocked his "drinkers" out of the playoffs.
As far as the new team "handing out lessons," fcking bring it....
|
|
| PlayTwo
December 19, 2006
5:35:41 PM
Entry #: 1841944
| Hey Ben, put some time in, we don't hand out drinking awards to rookies.
I agree with you on the alleged new team. Anyone who talks about how good they are usually
aren't worth a shit.
|
|
| Gator25
December 19, 2006
8:52:17 PM
Entry #: 1842210
| "we don't hand out drinking awards to rookies."
LOL, looks like 2nd place for us again....
Not only do I need more talent next year, now I gotta get some alky's.
TD and Billy G to the rescue.
|
| Gator18
December 20, 2006
9:29:04 AM
Entry #: 1842662
| Won't it be fun not only to watch your own team's fortunes, but to root against any cocky newcomers. I cant wait until the Chiefs have some one to call their Beeyotch.
|
|
| D. Scott 11
December 20, 2006
9:47:51 AM
Entry #: 1842685
| Isn't that exactly what we all did this year with you guys?
Just breakin' balls...
I would love to see new teams in the league...It takes a few games to adjust to my blazin' fastball...
|
| Norm
December 23, 2006
2:37:53 PM
Entry #: 1846838
| Interesting stuff I've been missing on this site....Arch told me to check it out, and since FFootball is about over I'll have to switch over for a liitle baseball. Plus the Cardinals are just now sobering up from the season....Ben hate to tell you but you're at least in 3rd place in the drinking derby....solid effort but you have to maintain the pace for a couple of years to see if you belong in a category with the Cardinals and DB's. Mixed emotions on the EH - nice to get a guy some AB's that can't quite do it in the field anymore (most of us Cardinals), but it does eat into the integrity of the league a little. Maybe the re-entry option may be something to consider, although all those moves/thinkin may screw up our drinkin.....or maybe add to it, I don't know. 9 inning games would just give us more chances to get hurt - let alone we have enough pitching for 7 inning games. Wooden bats? Yeah - we finally bought 2 new bats last year and of course now you want to switch bats. These 2 new bats will last us about 8 years (like the last ones) so bring it up again then. Happy holidays.
|
|
| Gator25
December 27, 2006
10:38:34 AM
Entry #: 1849315
| Norm, I'll take third place. Wasnt looking for a title or runner up (drinking that is), but just a little acknowledgement. We closed that place down on more than one occasion, and we were just looking for an honorable mention. This offseason we will just have to hit the bar after we hit the cages, training for both titles next year.
This bud's for you...Happy Holidays all.
PS. How did you do in FF? I beat all the clowns I played with...
|
| Norm
December 27, 2006
12:04:51 PM
Entry #: 1849415
| FFootball was kind of like our season - contenders but no trophy to take home - 2nd in league then lost 2nd round of playoffs. Just to let everyone know - Barry Grant, one of our guys - just opened a sports complex in Waterloo - indoor turf field, cages, bar/grill, etc - if anybody is interested to get some work in during the winter. The Cardinals are sure to break in the bar/grill.
|
|
