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TOPIC: Two from the throw |
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| Dennis (Hosanna)
June 14, 2011
8:41:37 AM
Entry #: 3745828
| The voice of one crying from the wilderness,
"Two from the throw, two from the throw!"
Rather than bump the old thread on this topic, I'm creating a new one. It seems it's still necessary to bring this up. Whenever the live ball is thrown out of play, all runners are awarded TWO bases, and the award is based on the last base held at the time the throw is made (and if there are two runners between the same bases at time of throw {TOT}, the lead runner gets two and the trailing runner only one).
I keep bringing this up because it's a clearly needed teaching moment. There are so many misconceptions about this rule. I commonly hear that it's a one-base award or that it's base going to plus one. Neither of those are correct. It's always two bases from TOT.
Examples:
Batter hits a grounder to F6 who fields the ball and throws to 1B but throws it away. BR was still several steps away from 1B when the throw was made but is across the base when the thrown ball bounds out of play. What are the awarded bases? Since BR did not have 1B at TOT, the award is 1B and 2B. That's two bases (many people may not realise that 1B is part of the two-base award).
Example: Runner at 1B, batter hits a fly ball to the outfield. R1 advances halfway to 2B, and the fly ball is caught by F8. Seeing the catch, R1 returns to 1B. F8 throws the ball back to the infield, but it rolls past every one and goes out of play. R1 was standing on 1B while this happened (i.e. not trying to advance). What are the awarded bases? R1 last held 1B at TOT, so awarded bases are 2B and 3B.
Nobody ever complains about example 1 above, but in example 2, I continue to be surprised that people really don't know this rule. There should be no argument! It's always 2 bases from time of throw. Say it again: it's always 2 bases from time of throw.
The only time there may be a valid disagreement is when it's not clear where the runners were at time of throw (sometimes, as an umpire, you don't expect a routine throw to go out of play, so you may not be sure of where the runners were when the fielder threw the ball).
Interestingly, this rule is the same for all versions of fast pitch, slo-pitch, and baseball (except that in some baseball codes, the award is from time of pitch if the ball is thrown away by an infielder on the first play).
My final point: in our league, in situations such as example 2, should we insist on the proper enforcement even when the other team emphatically disagrees?
In my opinionyes! The rule is explicit, and it should be enforced uniformly. Trying to be nice and only enforcing one base serves only to reinforce a mistaken notion of what the rule actually is. I've been trying to teach the correct rule ever since about 1996 (when I first read the rule and realized I had it wrong too), and from what I see on the diamonds, this is still an ongoing effort.
So once again: two bases from the time of the throw.
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| ryan
June 16, 2011
2:03:30 PM
Entry #: 3747341
| i agree with you. there are misconceptions about this and i believe there always will be. That is that. I used to ump ball and this rule needed clarification with coaches that been coaching 5 years. If you feel this rule needs to be strickly enforced, i would just make sure every coach in the league strickly knows the rule. If a problem still occurs , the coaches ( who should be dealing with disagreements anyways) will know the proper ruling. Having said this , i never really has a problem with this rule in a non competitive league. i am not saying the correct call was always made, but for the most part it was.
Another problem is this: who actually comes unto this forum ? I was bored one day and decided to see what it was about. Today i went on it because it was the first thing that popped up when i went to this sight.
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| Dennis (Hosanna)
June 16, 2011
2:47:03 PM
Entry #: 3747374
| That's a good point. In really, I don't think many people really read this forum. There was more readership a couple years ago, but it seems to have ebbed.
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| Dennis (Hosanna)
June 17, 2011
3:11:13 PM
Entry #: 3747931
| I also meant to add that, many years ago, our league did make it a point to emphasize this rule for a couple of seasons, and it was then added to our House Rules as a clarification (and thus a point of emphasis). All team captains are supposed to receive these House Rules at the April meeting, but in any case, they are available for download on this website (see the "Handouts" link on the very left).
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| Rudy
June 20, 2011
4:32:12 PM
Entry #: 3749487
| I would agree that the forum does not get much use.
I do however appreciate the conversations that do occur here.
I often refer people to look for answers here.
ie 1) check our rules
2) check the forum
3) ask
They added a nice feature this year to the forum where each post automatically generates an e-mail to a select group. Any questions or discussions are now pretty much guaranteed a quick answer.
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| Dennis
June 20, 2011
5:31:13 PM
Entry #: 3749527
| That's interesting to note. Now if only they would add support for BBS formatting!
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| ryan
June 23, 2011
1:22:39 AM
Entry #: 3751480
| I am new to the league, so excuse me if i sound a little arrogant or pushy in my post. Having said this i have 7 years of experience playing in other non competive leagues.
i just want to reiterate one thing : rules vs sportmanship. The coaches should know the rules but i believe the league should really emphasize emphasize one thing : how to handle disputes if they do arise. In my seven years of playing ball there has been only one dispute i ever had, but i think it is still pertinent for me to write this post.
Rules, I believe , are their for two reasons : one , so a new person can learn how to play the game properly and two, so the more unsavoury players can not get away with mischef. This latter suggestion should never happen at all in any sport , especially in a league like the lutheran league.
Furthermore, i think the luthern league is a great place for a person to get aquainted with slo pitch. I know this from person experience : my team this year has many players on it that have never swung the bat. They are having a blast , so i am I.
However, since we are human and inclined to fail rules are needed. Therefore, i say again , i believe one thing should be stressed: coaches knowing how to handle disputes. And generally disputes are not about the rules themselves, but how they are addressed in the particular situations.
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June 23, 2011
1:58:22 AM
Entry #: 3751483
| i focus on sportmanship rather than the rules.
Having said this, Dennis keep on posting the correct rules ... they are very informative. I do , however make one suggestion ... do not us acronyms - ib , 2b ect... unless u explain what postions they actually are. A new person looking at them can easily be confused.
Furthermore , i generally agree with your earlier post - the correct ruling should be followed. I just do not like it when u say this : it should be necessarly followed even when the other team emphatically disagrees with the call. This would be the time when tempers flare and the situation can get out of hand. I think one team needs to " suck " it up during the game and then the two coaches consult after the game . If it necessary the two coaches could meet with the leagues president if the problem continues.
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| Dennis
June 23, 2011
1:56:37 PM
Entry #: 3751919
| Point taken about the acronyms. When I’m posting in a hurry (which I usually am), I tend to forget to define such baseball jargon.
Sportsmanship is a nebulous concept, and I don’t think any two people will agree on exactly what it is in all circumstances. I do think we can all agree that playing within the rules is part of it, but sportsmanship is more than just that. While I believe enforcing the rules correctly (and uniformly) is important, I also agree that how we handle disagreements over the rules is important too. Let me admit right now that I’m not particularly gifted at resolving disagreements.
Sometimes, I even have disagreements with my own team! An example from a couple seasons ago: in a potential infield-fly situation with our team fielding and me sitting off that inning, the batter hit a short blooper between first and second base. Our second basewoman (F4) made a good effort to catch it but just couldn’t reach it. The umpire did not rule this an infield fly, and all runners safely advanced a base. Some of my teammates then questioned why this was not called an infield fly. The umpire (from the other team) asked for my opinion, and I agreed with him it was not catchable with ordinary effort and thus should not be called an infield fly. Some of my teammates weren’t happy with me, but I gave my input as objectively as I could.
We have had situations similar to my example 2 above when we were fielding, and if the other team doesn’t award enough bases to their runners, we insist that they get it right. They may disagree, but in these situations, it’s easy to convince them of the rule!
But when the disagreement is over a rule where the application is in our favour, it’s much harder to work it out. In our league, I am in favour of having the coaches suspending play and consulting the rulebook, but even that has some downsides (I think I’ve expounded on that in other posts, so I won’t go further into that here).
To summarize, I agree that how one handles disputes is important. Our league thinks so too, which is why we have a code of conduct (and I have to admit that I don’t always live up to it).
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| ryan
June 23, 2011
6:48:28 PM
Entry #: 3752114
| I definitely agree with your last post. I am glad that your team is willing to correct the errors even if it is to your disadvantage.
If everything is handled diplomatically and the other team will still not recount on their inncorrect rule, i believe that is sad. A person should own up to their mistakes. We all do it , we are human.
If the other team still disagress and i believe they are wrong on the call, i would handle the situation thus :
All i would say is this to the other team: we leave things stand as they are now, but i still want to consult the leagues president so i can have a clearer sense of the particular rule in question.
Anyways, i am going to stress rules more on my team. I will not be there all the time and i need to know someone will be there who knows them.
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