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TOPIC: New Playoff Format Proposal |
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| Ben Lippert
January 22, 2013
10:46:59 PM
Entry #: 4028830
| New Rock River League Playoff Format Proposal
I think it would be a good idea if we started to discuss alternative playoff alignments before the next meeting, so I have placed my proposal on here for advice, suggestion, and of course criticism. What do you think? I think if we could zero in on one or two different proposals for the meeting we have a better chance of getting needed changes made.
What’s different?
1.16 teams would make the playoffs instead of 10. The playoffs would be formatted like an NCAA tournament basketball region.
2.No Southern Division play-in game
3.Seeding would go by record not division
4.The first 3 seeds would be reserved for the Division winners. (2 divisions in the South) They will also be seeded by record.
5. The first weekend will be single elimination. The 2nd weekend with 4 2-0 teams will begin double elimination play.
6.We could still keep alternating home field if we desire but if two teams meet-up after the first round that both had home or away games the home field would go to the higher seed.
7.This format would guarantee a champion by the end of the first weekend of September. I know games beyond that date have always been a concern for teams with high school and college players.
8.Tie-Breakers for seeding would go as follows. 1. Head to head match-ups 2. If they are from the same division in the South it would go by division record. 3. Run differential. An alternate consideration would be best record or win % against teams in the projected playoff field.
9.If there is a tie for the #16 seed. A play-in game could be used.
What the Projected Seeding/ First Weekend Would Have Been Last year (8/11-8-12)
Tie breaker Advantage for seeding will be in parenthesis.
Region 1
#1 Kewaskum 15-1 vs #16 Horicon 5-11
#8 Brownsville 11-5 vs #9 Watertown 10-6
Winners play Sunday to make final 4
Region 4
#4 Janesville 12-4 (H2h over Clyman, +66 runs) vs #13 Lebanon 7-9
#5 Hustiford 12-4 (+46) vs #12 Oakfield 9-7 (+33)
Winners play Sunday to make final 4
Region 3
#3 Milton 13-3 vs #14 Hartford 6-10
#6 Clyman 12-4 (+43) vs #11 Madison L.T. 9-7 (+49)
Winners play Sunday to make final 4
Region 2
#7 Rubicon 11-5 (H2H over Brownsville) vs #10 Madison Rockers (div. record over LT)
#2 Neosho 14-2 vs #15 Johnson Creek 6-10
Winners play Sunday to make final 4
What the Projected Seeding/ 2nd Weekend Would Have Been Last year (8/18-8-19) Double Elimination starts
Saturday 8/18
Region 1 winner vs Region 4 Winner
Region 2 winner vs Region 3 Winner
Sunday 8/19
3-0 vs 3-0 teams Winner clinches a spot in the RRL Grand Championship
2-1 vs 2-1 teams (Elimination game)
What the Projected Seeding/ 3rd Weekend Would Have Been Last year (8/25-8-26)
Saturday 8/25
3-1 vs 3-1 team Winner clinches a spot in the RRL Grand Championship
Sunday 8/26
Game 1 of the Rock River League Grand Championship (Still Best of 3)
What the Projected Seeding/ 4th Weekend Would Have Been Last year (9/1-9/2)
Saturday 9/1
Game 2 of the Rock River League Grand Championship
Sunday 9/2
Game 3 of the Rock River League Grand Championship (If necessary)
What Problems Does This Solve?
1.More teams playing in more meaningful games.
2.Less confusing format.
3.Eliminates Uneven Bye Advantage. The only bye in this bracket goes to the team that is 4-0. Our current system has too many bye’s in my opinion. Imagine if the 49er’s or the Ravens got a bye in their conference championship game. When there are only 5 or 3 teams left a bye is a massive advantage. This format eliminates that. A playoff should be a new season.
4.Top seeds will still have an advantage. By playing weaker teams in the first round they could save their top pitching if they so choose for their 2nd round opponent. Their path to the double elimination final 4 is easier but certainly not guaranteed.
5.No more play-in games in the South. We had 2 12-4 teams eliminated in the play-in game last year. That is a tough pill to swallow.
6.No playing after Labor Day Weekend.
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| Tim Norton
January 23, 2013
10:31:12 PM
Entry #: 4029108
| We have too many teams in the playoffs now, We should never have a playoff team with a losing record. What does the regular season mean if almost everyone makes the playoffs? Also, a bye is earned and should be rewarded, we don't give enough credit for the top 3 teams for winning the division. Go back to the drawing board, but at least a new thought.
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| Ben Lippert
January 24, 2013
1:57:49 PM
Entry #: 4029243
| Tim, I have no problem with a 1st round bye but anything beyond that is far too much. A playoff is a new season and should be treated as such. I could see a format with 4 teams recieving 1st round bye's (3 division winners and top WC) and the 5-12 teams playing the first weekend to get the field down to 8 teams the next weekend. I would like seeding to go by record and not division though to compensate for the uneven divisions. I prefer a bracket over the current system, because if a 12-4 team from the South is playing in a one game playoff a 10 or 11 win team from the North should be expected to do the same.
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| Kyle Krueger
January 25, 2013
10:16:53 AM
Entry #: 4029471
| I think that it is great that we have someone else coming up with an idea for the playoffs and speaking their mind. While I don't think this is the best option for the league as it then just becomes a tournament as opposed to a playoff. I would hesitate to ever do run differential as a tie-breaker because then you may see teams running the score up just to be in a better position for tie-breakers. This could very much jeopardize the integrity of the league and the game. Runs allowed is a much better tie-breaker for this reason. I think that it would be great if we have others in the league get involved and speak their opinions on the leagues issues, it will only strengthen the league as a whole.
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| Ben Lippert
January 26, 2013
6:26:32 PM
Entry #: 4029686
| Kyle, good point on runs allowed I have ammended my proposal to reflect that idea. I agree on utilizing the website more. We don't have to make any major league decisions on here, but it would probably help the meetings run smoother if we used the website to zero in on one or two solid alternative proposals to present rules/ideas at the meeting instead of a bunch people spitballing many different proposals at the meetings. This would alleviate tension and frustration in my opinion. At the bottom will be my ammended proposal with 12 teams. I have yet to come up with a better method for double elimination for 8 teams so I kept the double elimination format begining with 4 teams as in my original proposal. If anyone has a good idea for 8 team double elimination feel free to share. Here is my revised proposal:
New Rock River League Playoff Format Proposal
What’s different?
1.12 teams would make the playoffs instead of 10.
2.No Southern Division play-in game.
3.Seeding would go by record not division.
4.The first 4 seeds will be reserved for the Division winners and the top wild card team in either division. All 4 team will receive a 1st game bye.
5.The first weekend will be single elimination. The 2nd weekend with 4 teams left will begin double elimination play.
6.We could still keep alternating home field if we desire but if two teams meet-up after the first round that both had home or away games the home field would go to the higher seed.
7.This format would guarantee a champion by the end of the first weekend of September. I know games beyond that date have always been a concern for teams with high school and college players.
8.Tie-Breakers for seeding would go as follows. 1. Head to head match-ups 2. If they are from the same division in the South it would go by division record. 3. Runs allowed. An alternate consideration would be best record or win % against teams in the projected playoff field.
9.If there is a tie for the #12 seed. A play-in game could be used.
What the Projected Seeding/ First Weekend Would Have Been Last year (8/11-8-12)
Tie breaker Advantage for seeding will be in parenthesis.
Region 1
#8 Brownsville 11-5 vs #9 Watertown 10-6
#1 Kewaskum bye
Winners play Sunday
Region 4
#5 Clyman 12-4 (83 RA) vs #12 Madison LT 9-7 (102 RA)
#4 Janesville 12-4 (H2h over Clyman, 77 RA)
Winners play Sunday
Region 3
#6 Hustiford 12-4 (87 RA) vs #11Madison Rockers 9-7 (Div. Record over LT)
#3 Milton 13-3
Winners play Sunday
Region 2
#7 Rubicon 11-5 (H2H over Brownsville) vs #10 Oakfield 9-7 (57 RA)
#2 Neosho 14-2
Winners play Sunday
What the Projected Seeding/ 2nd Weekend Would Have Been Last year (8/18-8-19)
Saturday 8/18
Region 1 winner vs Region 4 Winner
Region 2 winner vs Region 3 Winner
Sunday 8/19
3-0 vs 3-0 teams Winner clinches a spot in the RRL Grand Championship
2-1 vs 2-1 teams (Elimination game)
What the Projected Seeding/ 3rd Weekend Would Have Been Last year (8/25-8-26)
Saturday 8/25
3-1 vs 3-1 team Winner clinches a spot in the RRL Grand Championship
Sunday 8/26
Game 1 of the Rock River League Grand Championship (Still Best of 3)
What the Projected Seeding/ 4th Weekend Would Have Been Last year (9/1-9/2)
Saturday 9/1
Game 2 of the Rock River League Grand Championship
Sunday 9/2
Game 3 of the Rock River League Grand Championship (If necessary)
What Problems Does This Solve?
1.More teams playing in more meaningful games.
2.Less confusing format.
3.Eliminates Uneven Bye Advantage. The only bye in this bracket goes to the team that is 4-0. Our current system has too many bye’s in my opinion. Imagine if the 49er’s or the Ravens got a bye in their conference championship game. When there are only 5 or 3 teams left a bye is a massive advantage. This format eliminates that. A playoff should be a new season.
4.Top seeds will still have an advantage. With the bye in the first round they could save their top pitching if they so choose for their 2nd round opponent. Their path to the double elimination final 4 is easier but certainly not guaranteed.
5.No more play-in games in the South. We had 2 12-4 teams eliminated in the play-in game last year. That is a tough pill to swallow.
6.No games after Labor Day Weekend.
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| Doug Welch
January 31, 2013
1:43:43 PM
Entry #: 4030567
| Gentlemen,
Ben, thanks a bunch for beginning this thread. You are correct in stating this is a good venue for those associated with the league to share their thoughts and perspective on issues such as the playoff format. To date, nothing has been formally proposed to the league board of directors but there are a couple of ideas out there that people are beginning to kick around. Thanks again, Ben, for the tournament idea. Obviously, a great deal of time, effort and thought went into the proposal.
My thoughts on that specific proposal are that it is something I couldn’t support. I agree with Tim that it allows too many teams into the post season, thus diluting the regular season. I also agree with Kyle that the idea is more geared as a tournament format rather than a league playoff. To be more specific, I couldn’t support a format that proposes any type of single-elimination element. Three years ago we (Milton) were fortunate to sneak into the playoffs on the final week of the season. Having the eighth seed we went to No. 1 Rubicon, which was 16-0. Our pitcher pitched well, we got some key hits and plays in the field and we won. Were we a better team than Rubicon? Absolutely not. It would have been a travesty for the league to have a format that would have ended Rubicon’s season there and then. Ben’s proposed format would allow for a first-game bye for division winners. Just the same, I couldn’t support any proposal that does not guarantee two games for each qualifier.
I’ve also reviewed proposals that basically facilitate in-division playoffs with the winners of the North and South meeting for the championship. I could live with something like that but would not be convinced the idea would be worth a wholesale scrapping of the existing format. No doubt the current format is not without flaws. Most notably, I’ve observed, it is criticized for not adequately providing home-field advantage for higher seeds. There’s no arguing the fact the current format is barnacled by some more-than-curious match-up and travel scenarios. That’s especially true on the second day of the first weekend.
That being said, it’s my belief that the very concept that can make the current format clumsy and curious is also it’s most valued. I think the current format’s biggest asset is that it provides substantial opportunity for cross-divisional play. (And that’s coming from a guy running a team that had to make a 90-minute trip to Brownville on a Thursday night last year to finish a game called due to rain in the eighth inning the previous Sunday.) In my mind, I don’t think the importance of cross-divisional play can be understated. This notion might be lost on teams that play in the night league and routinely interact with teams in the other division. But for those who don’t, the current playoff format is a rare platform for that to happen.
I also believe the number of teams being provided the Grand Championship playoff by each division is appropriate. The current “play-in” concept in the South is a reasonable solution to “12-9” issue without forcing a team or teams to switch divisions. The 12-9 issue is a fluid situation, depending on teams coming and leaving the league. If the league ever got to a solid 24-team base, a radical change in the playoff format would be necessitated.
This is all a very long-winded way to say I don’t think the league is at a place where it needs to blow up the existing format. That’s not to say there aren’t reasonable ideas that could improve that format.
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| Troy from Neosho
February 11, 2013
7:33:35 PM
Entry #: 4032495
| Ben,
I also applaud you taking a stab at a very tricky topic. It is my belief that the league first must be fixed. By this I mean that I think it's obvious we need 3 more competitive teams. With this 4, six team divisions could be made. I think it can't be understated that I know it's true that no southern team wants to flop to the north and face the likes of the A's, RedSox, Brownsville and Oakfield for a playoff spot. These teams have been absolute monsters for the better part of a decade. However, once even divisions are created, a real and fair playoff can be utilized. I'm all for old rivalries and neosho has a few great ones, but as we have seen over the last few years, most league growth will be toward Madison. A re-alignment, I think will be inevitable. Just my two cents, but I honestly believe that any new playoff system that we make now would be changed anyway as soon as the North and the South have equal teams. That being said I do not think the South is at any disadvantage with the play in games or anything like that, I just think our league will continue to grow and that three more teams would be welcomed and would definitely help sort out a foggy playoff format.
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