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TOPIC: The DH Rule: Class is now in session. |
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
June 30, 2013
9:23:09 PM
Entry #: 4070293
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Rule 6.10
Any League may elect to use the Designated Hitter Rule.
In the event of inter-league competition between clubs of Leagues using the Designated Hitter Rule and clubs of Leagues not using the Designated Hitter Rule, the rule will be as follows:
In World Series or exhibition games, the rule will be used or not used as is the practice of the home team.
In All-Star games, the rule will only be used if both teams and both Leagues so agree.
The Rule provides as follows:
A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game.
A Designated Hitter for the pitcher must be selected prior to the game and must be included in the lineup cards presented to the Umpire in Chief.
The designated hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least one time, unless the opposing club changes pitchers.
It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that game.
Pinch hitters for a Designated Hitter may be used. Any substitute hitter for a Designated Hitter becomes the Designated Hitter. A replaced Designated Hitter shall not re-enter the game in any capacity.
The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
A runner may be substituted for the Designated Hitter and the runner assumes the role of Designated Hitter. A Designated Hitter may not pinch run.
A Designated Hitter is "locked" into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation of the Designated Hitter.
Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.
Once a pinch hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the game to pitch, this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.
Once the game pitcher bats for the Designated Hitter this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. (The game pitcher may only pinch-hit for the Designated Hitter).•
Once a Designated Hitter assumes a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. A substitute for the Designated Hitter need not be announced until it is the Designated Hitter's turn to bat.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
June 30, 2013
9:33:36 PM
Entry #: 4070297
| This class bill be graded pass fail.
Class open your books to section below:
The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
Naturals you fail the course :-(
Apologies are in order
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJhPLGMhRuQ
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| spectator
July 1, 2013
10:17:37 AM
Entry #: 4070401
| Instead of wasting your time looking this rule, because you lost the game anyway. You should tell your d-bag #3 hitter to rethink his completely moronic home run celebrations. Quite a few teams seen his actions yesterday. Wow what a tool. And to think, this guy supposedly played professional baseball.
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| Journalism Major
July 1, 2013
11:17:28 AM
Entry #: 4070431
| Spectator: In addition to your misunderstanding of the rule book, please also go back and brush up on your remedial English - specifically the proper use of seen and saw.
"Quite a few teams SEEN his actions yesterday." - Incorrect
Quite a few teams SAW his actions yesterday. Correct
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| spectator
July 1, 2013
12:30:43 PM
Entry #: 4070457
| Sorry Mr. Journalist Major. I was too busy banging your wife to worry about proper English.
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July 1, 2013
2:14:43 PM
Entry #: 4070479
| So, I assume there were two umpires there that did know the rule, and made sure it was implemented correctly, and also at the same time was able to correct and explain the rule to whomever did not know it? I guess I would have had to have been there, but this seems like something that could have/should have been handled at the game.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 1, 2013
3:13:37 PM
Entry #: 4070509
| To Unnamed Poster: Both umps got it wrong yesterday. I think the Nats were trying to say the starting pitcher had to come out or no longer pitch when the DH entered the game to a defensive postion. I also think they felt that the pitcher could only bat in the the DH spot. See below two parts of the rule. One seems simple enough but the other sounds a bit odd and that could be there reason
The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
This part of the rule sounds simple enough. Yesterday's example, The catcher batting 5th, that's me, had to leave so in essence the DH came into the defense for me but the player who was the dh still bats in his same slot which was 7 or 8. So where does the pitcher go. According to the rule the pitcher now hits in the spot that came out (5th). That would be me. I don't see anywhere where it says the pitcher can't pitch anymore in the game or is locked only in the DH spot in the lineup.
Now the confusing part of rule
Once the game pitcher bats for the Designated Hitter this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. (The game pitcher may only pinch-hit for the Designated Hitter).•
I am still trying to figure this one out as it seems to contradict the previous part of the rule. But in my research, what I read, basically the rules makers were trying to cover every possibility a coach may make. The pitcher yesterday was never going to pinch hit for the DH because the DH was going to the field for defense. So see above.
What I want to know "apologize jokes aside" is what were the Nats thinking when they brought it up to the umpire and the reasoning behind it. It would be nice to know as we are all students of the game and learining something most of us apparantly got wrong, umps included, just makes us better players and that's the the point is it not?
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 1, 2013
6:07:26 PM
Entry #: 4070540
| To spectator
Yes the Sox lost the game but I am not making this out to be about winning and losing. This is about a rule that is followed by weekend warriors like us all the way to the top of the profession. If somebody is going to question a move and start making up stuff in it that doesn't exist, then we should look it up so it doesn't happen again for all teams. You seem to be upset about home run trots.
There are written and un-written rules. Last time I looked, the written ones are the ones that must be followed because they are THE rules. They lay out a scenario and plainly say what you can and can't do and what the end result should be depending on what you do. Over the top home run trots and stealing when you have a big league are nowhere to be found. It's subject to interpretation. One persons unwritten rules are different from the next. It's generally accepted that you don't do those thing for a majority but maybe someone else sees it differently. So if something like that happens do you go to the ump and say, Mr Ump, he can't act like a (insert your favorite word or phrase). Its against the rules. (sad face) How do you deal with something like that I ask? Well lets go to the unwritten rule book. Wait, it doesn't exist.
What does exist are the written rules and that is what you use to guide you through. It is what it is. It says what it says though it can be difficult to understand at times. But it gives you the right way to proceed given the situation and there have been over a century's worth of situations to get it right. Can I get an Amen from the choir! Can I get an Amen!
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| Trev8
July 2, 2013
1:55:29 PM
Entry #: 4070752
| Papi,
While I appreciate your candor. You never fail to produce well versed and entertaining posts and for that I thank you.
Never in my career has this situation come up and quite frankly I am surprised that this is the first time in our league that this has occurred.
Immediately when the change was made I started to go to my rule book to look it up. My understanding of the rule was that in the case of the DH entering defensively, the pitcher must leave and then a straight nine lineup would ensue.
And since you started the thread I assume you needed to research the rule as well. I appreciate that you quoted it because that may help with my explanation of why I am still not convinced that it was a legal move.
In the rule it speaks about "substituted player" unfortunately Sec. 2 does not define what substitutions are. However in Sec. 3 it refers to substitutions and how they are supposed to be handled. The part you referred to 6.10b(5) does not specify whether it is speaking about a new pitcher it just says pitcher.
I have consulted with several friends who currently coach at the college level and they believe that it is not a legal move because it provides for a way for that team to have an unfair advantage by entering their pitcher into a position in the lineup for a player that may not be hitting well or is a lesser hitter.
I would say that this rule is vague to say the least and is in need for better interpretation. But thank you for starting the discussion
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| Moe (Redsox)
July 2, 2013
2:13:04 PM
Entry #: 4070759
| why are there so many vaginas who don't post their names on this forum...cmon spectators) if u have something to say, say it with pride.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 2, 2013
3:51:29 PM
Entry #: 4070792
| Trev8
Thanks for the kind words and the understanding that yes I like to act a fool at the same time trying to make a point, and also stating your reasons behind your thought process during this situation. This game we play truly is amazing and understanding why the rules are written the way they are and really trying to get to the heart of what it means is what we should all strive for to understand. I'll go back and look into your points and and try to figure this out. I'll be back
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| WildBill
July 2, 2013
4:52:15 PM
Entry #: 4070804
| I don't think it's too complicated. The DH is designated to hit for only the pitcher. The pitcher can only hit in the DH spot, he can't move to any other place in the batting lineup, for the very reason Trevor stated (better hitter). If you knew you had to leave the game, somebody else besides the DH should have taken your spot, or have somebody else DH so your replacement could have come in, then the pitcher stays in the game and the DH stays in the game. You simply make a position change. That's how I think it should have happend and I'm sticking to it. Good discussion fellas.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 2, 2013
11:41:57 PM
Entry #: 4070867
| Trev8 and Wildbill: below I took some of Trev8's thoughts and gave a response for them. Hopefully this gets us on the same page. Below is link to MLB rule book.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2013/official_baseball_rules.pdf#page=63&zoom=133,126,329
My understanding of the rule was that in the case of the DH entering defensively, the pitcher must leave and then a straight nine lineup would ensue. -> Lets assume for this you mean DH enters defensively at any position other than pitcher. Part B5 of rule clearly states the DH going into defense no longer hits for the pitcher. The pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player. So you have your straight nine lineup as you put it.
In the rule it speaks about "substituted player" unfortunately Sec. 2 does not define what substitutions are. However in Sec. 3 it refers to substitutions and how they are supposed to be handled. The part you referred to 6.10b(5) does not specify whether it is speaking about a new pitcher it just says pitcher. -> I looked at Section 2 and 3 and it says nothing about the DH. I think you are adding something that is not there to the rule 6.10b5. It seems cut and dry. If what you understand is that the pitcher must leave or come out if the game don’t you think it would clearly say that. I’ll give examples a little later
I have consulted with several friends who currently coach at the college level and they believe that it is not a legal move because it provides for a way for that team to have an unfair advantage by entering their pitcher into a position in the lineup for a player that may not be hitting well or is a lesser hitter. -> Ok I get it I am a weak hitter LOL! But wasn’t the DH set up so the pitcher would not have to hit speaking for MLB purposes because the pitchers are considered the weaker hitters. When the DH comes in defensively, you no longer have a DH but that player is still in the game and bats where he has been batting or as 6.10b7 says is “locked” into the batting order. Now the pitcher must hit but he can’t go to the guy who was the DH because that spot is already taken. He, the pitcher, must go since he has not hit to the player’s spot that came out being the So what you are saying is you should lose two players, one being the guy the DH goes to a defensive position for and the pitcher. It doesn’t work like that. I’ll site examples.
I would say that this rule is vague to say the least and is in need for better interpretation.
> I think you are trying to add things that are not in the rule but We’ll go down each section as it pertains to losing the DH for what ever reason and what each one means if I have too.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 3, 2013
12:25:02 AM
Entry #: 4070876
| Trev8 and Wildbill: Below are the examples I said I would provide where the DH was lost and the pitcher at that time had to bat in the substituted players batting spot and there were no other moves made. Source is Designated Hitter Wikipedia. Box scores are available as well to show the flow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_hitter Box scores
1. On June 27, 1976, the Detroit Tigers lost their DH in a game at the Boston Red Sox in the first inning when DH Rusty Staub went to right field instead of Alex Johnson. The pitcher, Frank MacCormack, took Johnson's place in the lineup, went 0 for 3, and pitched six innings before being relieved by John Hiller. The Tigers won 4–2 in 11 innings at Boston.[11]
2. The Seattle Mariners' Brian Holman was in the midst of a perfect game bid against Oakland on April 20, 1990, when Pete O'Brien was moved from DH to 1B in the eighth inning. Seattle therefore lost their DH and Holman batted for himself in the ninth, reaching base on an error by the second baseman. Holman subsequently lost his perfect game bid with two out in the bottom of the ninth, when pinch hitter Ken Phelps hit a home run. Holman retired the next batter to end the game, winning 6-1.[15]
3. An unusual instance of an American League team forfeiting its right to the DH happened on July 22, 1999 to the Cleveland Indians in a game against the Toronto Blue Jays. Manny Ramirez, the designated hitter, accidentally went into right field in the top of the 2nd instead of Alex Ramirez, causing some confusion. The Indians lost their DH, Alex Ramirez was out of the lineup, and Charles Nagy was forced to hit in Alex Ramirez's place going 0 for 2. John McDonald later pinch-hit for Nagy in the 6th inning.[21]
4. In the second game of a doubleheader between the Minnesota Twins and Chicago White Sox on July 6, 2007, the Twins initially used their starting catcher, Joe Mauer, as the DH because Mauer had started the first game at catcher. The starting catcher for the second game, Mike Redmond, however, was forced to leave the game in the first inning due to injury after accidentally being struck in the head by the bat of Jim Thome, and Mauer had to take the field as the replacement catcher. Twins starting pitcher Matt Garza thus was forced into the batting order and became the first American League pitcher to bat in a regular-season American League game since Hipolito Pichardo on July 31, 2000. Garza went 0-for-2, but picked up the win in a 12-0 victory over the White Sox.[24][25]
5. On April 6, 2013 in a game against the Tampa Bay Rays, the Cleveland Indians lost their DH in the 4th inning when catcher Lou Marson was injured on a play in the bottom of the third inning. DH Carlos Santana came in to catch for Marson. Pitcher Trevor Bauer batted for himself in the top of the 5th.[33]
After seeing these examples they must sway you to my side. These happened in the pros so MLB umps couldn't of administered their rulings wrong each time as you think you see it. Let me know what you think.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
6:55:49 AM
Entry #: 4071100
| Rule 6.10(b)1
The Designated Hitter Rule provides as follows:
(1) A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent
pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in
the game.
What does that mean for our league. Well if your team shows up every game and has multiple players not in the original lineup, then if any of those players comes in to pitch and the game pitcher comes out of the game the status of the DH does not change. He is still the DH hitting for the pitcher and the pitchers that are relieved are now out of the game and can not return.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
7:06:52 AM
Entry #: 4071106
| Rule 6.10(b)2
The Designated Hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least
one time, unless the opposing club changes pitchers.
What does this mean for our league. Well if your big bat is running late for the game and you are wanting to DH for the pitcher and you designate some one other than your "big bat" to DH until he gets there, that guy must hit at least once. Only after that first AB could then your big bat pinch hit or pinch run for the DH and at that point your big bat becomes the new DH
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
7:08:42 AM
Entry #: 4071107
| 6.10(b)3
It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to
do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that club
for that game.
Not much more you can add to this one.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
7:16:17 AM
Entry #: 4071109
| 6.10(b)4
Pinch-hitters for a Designated Hitter may be used. Any substitute hitter for a
Designated Hitter becomes the Designated Hitter. A replaced Designated
Hitter shall not re-enter the game in any capacity.
What does this mean for our league: like I stated earlier if you have the guys on the bench, they can pinch hit for the DH only after the original DH bats at least one time. The DH who was pinch hit for is out of the game. And in part 1 one of rule earlier, the pitcher is not affected in any way.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
7:39:33 AM
Entry #: 4071115
| Rule 6.10(b)5
The Designated Hitter may be used on defense, continuing to bat in the same
position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the
substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and
the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
What does this mean for our league: Well most teams out there usually have between 10-11 guys on any given day unless you are the NATS who has a full 25 man roster every game. That's fine nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with just 10. In this situation with only ten guys and one being the DH (hitting in the 4 spot), when and if the DH takes over a defensive position the player that is the DH still hits in his spot in order. The player (the right fielder for example who was hitting in 9th spot) has requested to come out and is now out of the game so that team must play with 9 players. The DH is now the right fielder so now what happens to the pitcher? Simple, the pitcher must now bat for himself. Where does he hit? In the 9 spot as the original outfielder is now out of the game and that was his spot in the lineup. So now since the pitcher must hit for himself, there is no more DH
This is the situation that the Sox were trying to execute until all heck broke loose. However the timing of this move is the key part. I'll come back to his when I get to Rule 6.10(b)10 because I have unlocked the mystery but will continue on for each part until then
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
7:48:58 AM
Entry #: 4071116
| Rule 6.10(b)6
A runner may be substituted for the Designated Hitter and the runner assumes
the role of Designated Hitter. A Designated Hitter may not pinch-run
What does this mean: Well with the Nats 25 man roster they can easily take one of their bench players and have him pinch run for their Big Bat DH who is slow of foot giving them a fast runner as the new DH (no advantage with that ha ha). But now the Big Bat DH is out of the game and the new speedy DH can't pinch run for anyone on else. DH's can't pinch run.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
7:56:28 AM
Entry #: 4071117
| Rule 6.10(b)7
A Designated Hitter is “locked” into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation of the Designated Hitter.
What does this mean for us: Well most teams not including the NATS tend to not have a 25 man roster there every game so this would be difficult to achieve. So NATS I got my eye on you and your moves. But if the DH is locked into a spot in the lineup, well then I'll just have to go with it.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
8:17:29 AM
Entry #: 4071120
| Rule 6.10(b)8
Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a position on defense,
such move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for that club for the
remainder of the game
What does this mean for our league: Lets look at a ten man lineup with one being the DH hitting for the pitcher.
The starting pitcher has tired in the 5th. The stud relief pitcher plays shortstop but is a "weak" hitter batting ninth. The starting pitcher goes to short and the shortstop comes in to pitch. Well the DH is supposed to hit for the pitcher right. Eureka! problem solved. The pitcher that moved to short now hits in the 9th spot and the short stop that switched to pitcher no longer hits because we have a DH for him. As my man Kevin Slaten used to say, that logic is more wronger than Wrongy Wronginson. When the pitcher goes to another defensive position, you can kiss the DH goodbye. He gone. The SS that is now pitching still hits in his spot (9th) but where does the guy who was pitching and is now the SS bat. All together class, the spot where the DH was hitting because the DH is out of the game.
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
9:04:39 AM
Entry #: 4071127
| Rule 6.10(b)9
Once a pinch-hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the
game to pitch, such move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for that
club for the remainder of the game
Example one: Pinch hitter hits for DH. That pinch hitter is now the DH. He then goes in to pitch an inning or two later. DH role has been terminated
Example two: Pinch hitter hits for second baseman who is in the 7 spot. At this point DH not affected. When they take field for defense, the pinch hitter that took over second base now pitches still hitting in 7 spot. The pitcher before comes either takes a seat on bench completely out of game or goes to another position. DH is terminated because the new pitcher was already batting in the 7 spot. And in a previous rule where pitcher goes from mound to another position he must bat in this case in the terminated DH spot because that is the guy that is completely out of the game now. it not always the case as in the 5th part pert of rule but it depends on the moves made and when.
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July 4, 2013
9:24:12 AM
Entry #: 4071130
| Rule 6.10(b)10
Once the game pitcher bats for the Designated Hitter, such move shall termi-
nate the Designated Hitter role for that club for the remainder of the game.
The game pitcher may pinch-hit only for the Designated Hitter
This is the one where I had to really think hard especially the part about the game pitcher may pinch hit ONLY for the DH. This initially is where I thought I lost my argument with Trev8 and Wildbill. Yes this does make it out to seem like the pitcher is somehow "tied" to the DH and that spot in the order only. This seems to contradict 6.10(b)5 that the particular move we (redsox) made was somehow not legal where the DH goes to defense, still hits in his same spot but the pitcher hits in the spot of defender that came out of game hence losing the DH. Trev8 had me going but he gave me some hope when I read his reasoning of why he thought our move was illegal. And his use of his college coach friends led me to unlock this mystery. Tune in later as I have to go to a parade but it's going to be worth it. This will be where, Trev8 and Wildbill lose this argument once and for all
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 4, 2013
3:52:49 PM
Entry #: 4071185
| Here we go, to better understand the MLB DH Rule, I took a look at the college DH rule. You can go look it it up yourself if you choose but here is a link that simplifies it for you
http://www.northbaydbms.net/nbpo/SimplifyingtheCollegeDHRule.pdf
The college rule in many ways is the same as the MLB rule. The big difference is the pitcher can at the same time be a DH call the P/DH. This is where it all started to come together. If you are reading the link above pay attention to the bold print in part 2, 5, and 6 but still read entire thing. The type of move you make depends if the team is hitting or in the field on defense.
Now lets go back to the Nats-Redsox game the other day.
In the top of the 5th or 6th the Redsox were batting. My turn (I was batting in 5th slot of order) came to bat. We attempted to have the pitcher pinch hit for me because I was going to have to leave and the end result we had in mind was the DH was going to go into the field, and the starting pitcher would now have to hit in my spot. By pure luck or because Trev8 was on top of the rule, the Nats said the pitcher could not pinch hit for me. In this case, they were correct. So I came to bat and of course struck out on three pitches. After reading the entire rule the reason why the pitcher could not pinch hit for me (see Rule 6.10(b)10, the catcher, was because the pitcher can only pinch hit or pinch run for the DH. Their argument that the pitcher and DH are tied together in the same spot in the lineup rings true when they are on OFFENSE or AT BAT. If someone was going to pinch hit for me, it would of had to been a player that was not in the game. We only had 10 players and one of those was the DH so of course our move at that point to have the pitcher pinch hit for me would of been and was disallowed based on that reason and that reason alone. Again Trev8 I applaud you for catching that error on our part. So the inning ends and we now go out on defense.
But now your complete understanding of the DH rule gets fuzzy. The Redsox are now on DEFENSE in the field. I am packing up and heading out because I have to leave. So the moment I came out of the game, the DH can go into the field on defense because this is a DEFENSIVE move being made. Of course we shuffle the defenders around as the player who was DH'ing does not catch. He heads to the outfield and one of the outfielders comes in to catch. Their spots in the batting lineup don't change. So what do we do about the pitcher. Looking at your response earlier you seem to think the pitcher must be taken out because the DH is now in the field. You would be correct if it was the pitcher being substituted for and taken out of the game completely. If the DH had gone into pitch, Babs would of come out as the "substituted defensive player", and we would of had to finish with Babs on the bench. But I was the defensive player being substituted for so Babs is still in the game and still able to pitch. So he must now hit for himself because the DH has become a defender. This is where Rule 6.10(b)5 comes into play. And where does he now hit? In my spot as the rule clearly states and since we only had 10 players there were no other substitutions that could made. "But the pitcher and DH are tied together in the same batting slot" or whatever it was you were also trying to say is no longer true in this case as this was a defensive move when we were on defense or in the field at the time. In this situation, the Pitcher and DH are not locked into the same batting slot as they would of been when we were hitting and to be completely honest with you, mistakenly tried to have Babs hit for me. That was wrong on our part and was corrected but that should of been the end of it. What happened when we took the field in our defensive half of the inning should of never happened and it's a shame the umps in this case got this wrong. Kudos to you for making them see it your way but you can guarantee it won't happen again as I have shown. And it's not just between us, this is is good for everyone to know and understand how it works so they don't make the same mistake.
I am confident that I have laid out the ground work here for all to see. I understand how your college coach friends can see how the college DH rule could potentially give some type of advantage because of how the college rule works but we are using MLB rules. You have to look at it in that perspective and that the DH was set up so the pitchers didn't have to hit because they were considered weaker hitters. So they made the rules so if you did anything that would cause you to lose the DH you were screwed because now your pitcher now has to hit period. The rule was not put in so if you lost the DH you would automatically lose the pitcher too. You are letting the fact that yes Babs is a great pitcher and better hitter than I am and to twist the DH Rules and throw in "well what exactly makes up a substitution" or when "they say pitcher are they meaning new pitcher" those are your words, so he potentially is taken of the mound which happened this time and possibly out of the game at the same time makes me wonder if you were intentionally trying to pull something. I have publicly stated when we tried to pinch hit Babs for me that upon further review that was wrong and that won't be done again because now we know. Will you see the light in you error. I have made my argument, long winded as it may be, but I have also provided MLB proof that what we eventually did is legal. Think it over. I await your reply. Same goes for you Wildbill as you chimed in as well. Hopefully you have been following along as well along with any one else that didn't quite understand the topic. I love this game!
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| Gabenator
July 6, 2013
9:34:42 AM
Entry #: 4071428
| This scenario does occur in FOY games reasonably often. It actually happen in our 6/18 vs The Bulls. Our third baseman left in the 4th inning. The DH entered the game at 3rd base. The pitcher then batted in the open spot that the 3rd baseman vacated. Steve and Kenny were umpiring. This is the MLB rule. I'm curious what the high school rule is. Sometimes there is some confusion if the high school rule is different.
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| Gabenator
July 6, 2013
10:26:57 AM
Entry #: 4071443
| This line from the rulebook describes (exactly) how this scenario has always played out in FOY games that I've been involved it.
"The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order."
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| Gabenator
July 6, 2013
10:43:20 AM
Entry #: 4071445
| Papi's examples of actual MLB games proves his point. I looked up a 1987 game where the DH entered the game to play 1st base. The box score has both the DH and the Pitcher in the hitting lineup. The pitcher hit in the six hole that the 1st baseman originally occupied.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR198709260.shtml
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| Big Papi Redsox #15
July 7, 2013
1:04:39 AM
Entry #: 4071541
| Gabenator, I don't have the high school dh rule by itself but here is a link to a power point presentation I came across during my research a few days ago that was meant to show the differences between College and the High School dh rule. What's cool about it is it shows the similarities and differences for NCAA, NAIA, High School (Fed), and pro ball (OBR). When I came across this I was already comfortable with my understanding of the OBR DH rule we use in the FOY. But having everything side by side on one platform made it easy to follow, and it further confirmed what I learned. All I can say is the High school DH rule is the most "jacked up" thing out there followed by the NCAA version. The NAIA DH, though it has some variations, is pretty close to the OBR or pro ball DH rule. Put yourself in the shoes of the umpires we use. What games do you think they typically do, high school and college most likely and trying to go back and forth between the two I think would be hard to do. Now throw in the players in the league, and there experiences or level of play they got to in their younger days, or watching their kids if they have any old enough in high school or college, is there any wonder just about everybody out there has some different interpretation, of this rule. And also, i am just generalizing here, this is a NL baseball town so most of the players and people from this areas aren't used to the DH anyway. But it's cool we had this discussion because now it's out there and now we all know the rule, or at least those who really took the time to try and understand how it all works. here is that power point
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CFwQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nwumpires.com%2Fhome%2Fimages%2Fstories%2FNWmisc%2F2012designatedhitter.ppt&ei=TvHYUdicOOTJ0QH1nICYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGyfnyp_8qlAXOtyuPB12XsxLRjJQ&bvm=bv.48705608,d.dmQ
Also if anybody happened to be watching Sports Center tonight, you would of seen the rare "batting out of turn" mishap by the Giants today against the Dodgers. I can't wait until this happens here to see what the fall out would be. Yes, I have read up on this rule earlier this spring after it happened in my kids game. Not going to go into details, but the umps, they were teenagers mind you, did not understand the rule and initially ruled too soon and incorrectly when the error was noticed "before" the at bat had been completed... hint hint that's a clue for those who don't know the rule.
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