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TOPIC: Hit by Pitch |
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| Jeff
June 1, 2008
4:26:50 PM
Entry #: 2773195
| EDITOR'S NOTE: This topic reappears every couple of years. I received an email regarding a recent injury to a batter hit by a hard throwing 10U player. Rich Mooney 6/14/2013
EDITOR'S NOTE: Bringing this to your attention due to recent e-mails concerning this topic. Rich Mooney 5/19/2011
Hit by Pitch
I recall when I attended a season opening coaches’ clinic a lawyer was asked to speak to us to discuss liabilities and the playing field. As a volunteer it certainly got my attention. It’s the basis for what I’ve perceived as a problem that’s not been properly addressed - safety.
Let it be known, I’m not a lawyer and I’m not giving legal advice so I have no awareness to the legal merit or significance of this information. But as a concerned coach and parent I want share information on what I perceive could suggest negligence. These are my opinions only.
Here are some excerpts that concerned me regarding information I found on “liabilities associated with Amateur Sports in the state of Maryland.”
• “A player is liable in tort if his conduct is such that it is either deliberate, willful or with a reckless disregard for the safety of other player so as to cause injury to the other players.”
• “A participant sport athlete has a duty not to engage in wanton, willful, or reckless conduct that injures another player or spectator.”
• “… the court noted, the liability of coaches has been limited to situations demonstrating an unusual disregard for a player's well being.”
“GIRLS ARE GETTING INJURED” in the 10U softball league from reckless, out of control pitching and no provisions are in place within the league rules that directly address the protection and welfare of these players. So you see the problem? If not, read on.
I’m aware the topic of “Wild pitching and Safety” is not a new subject for the league. There are no rules for 10U Girls Softball establishing safe pitching standards or guidelines. It bothers me there is a loophole for no limits. As a result, there are teams advocating fast pitching without regard to control or the consequences. Let me give examples in the next 3 paragraphs of what I’ve personally experienced and what other coaches, a league official and umpires have share with me. Be clear however, this is not an attack of a specific organization, it’s an awareness check to (in my perception of) a lack of action.
I watched an opposing 10U team pitcher warming-up at the beginning of a game throwing heat but only getting about 1 in 10 pitches in the strike zone. Immediately I’m thinking someone’s going to get hit. They did! She hit our players. Another girl was brought in with the same speed and the same lack of control. In one of the innings she pitched, 3 of our girls got hit. 2 of the girls now had to sit out of the game due to injury. One of players required an ice pack for first aid. I raised a protest to recklessness which resulted in a curt discussion at the plate with the opposing coach and umpire. This pitcher was allowed to remain in the game for another inning. She hit another one of our players. The score for this game was 6 girls hit by the opposing team, 0 girls hit by our girls.
We played another team from the same organization. At the beginning, to my surprise no girls were hit. By the 6th inning after 3-4 opposing pitching changes we had 6 girls hit again; 4 by one pitcher. We observed the opposing coach never approached the mound to discuss the issue with the player. Three girls were hit in one inning. One girl was injured causing her to temporarily sit out for an inning to administer an ice pack for minor first aid. The last had to sit out of the game due to injury which left us a player short in the final inning. After the game, our last girl injured was taken to Night-time Pediatrics (there’s documentation for that). The score in this game once again was 6 girls hit by the opposing team 0 girls hit by our girls.
Other team coaches acknowledge concern about pitching. I know of 2 who sited the same organization and both recognized about 6 players hit by pitches. An umpire site the same issue about the same organization expressing not only recklessness and the safety concerns for the welfare of the players but also a concern for himself getting hit. The math is easy here. 6 girls hit on the average per game over 4 games, 24 girls hit and no league rule about it. I’m certain that if all opposing teams were polled a better average and pattern of negligence could be established.
We all can accept that someone will lose control and accidents will happen. It’s a level of tolerance that we accept as reasonable people for activities involving willful participation. However, we don’t have to accept asking our 10 year old girls to stand in the batter’s box in those games against pitching knowing half of them will be hit by the opposing pitcher.
It's unexceptable to say this situation is part of the game. It’s our responsibility as adults, as volunteers and as league representatives to seek out unsafe conditions and to take corrective actions to protect the welfare of all “minors”, the league participants. The time to take responsible action is now!
Before the league enters the playoffs it's the perfect time to institute a rule is that stops pitchers with clear and obvious control issues from using opposing batters as fast pitch target practice.
Pitching Standards and Guidelines
This is a request Rule Change – Proposal “Hit By Pitch”
The umpire, the acting as the league official, will ensure all players and coaches follow the pitching standard set here within. The umpire will discuss the scope of the rules and expected standards (listed below) during the pre-game coaches’ discussion.
NOTE: This rule is observed based on the umpire’s discretion. It applies where batters make reasonable efforts to remove themselves from harms way to due to a wild pitch. If a reasonable effort is not observed or exercised by the batter, 1st base by dead ball is not awarded to the batter and the pitcher is not penalized for with a reckless pitch for hitting the batter. Game play is stopped in this instance and the offensive coach must counsel the batter.
1. If a pitcher hits any opposing team batter with a wild pitch twice within a game, at the time of the 2nd occurrence the umpire must stop the game to render an official warning about dangerous play to both coaches and to the offending pitcher. At conclusion of the official warning the defensive coach must make a mandatory visit to the pitching mound to counsel his pitcher.
2. If a pitcher hits any opposing team batter with a wild pitch three times within one game, the umpire must stop game play to order a mandatory pitching change. The offending pitcher can not pitch again within the same game. However, the player is still eligible to participate in the same game at another position.
3. If a pitcher hits any opposing team batter with a wild pitch three times within the same inning, the umpire must stop game play to order a mandatory pitching change. The umpire will record the name, number and team name of the offending pitching and report the information to the league officials (vice-president & director) at the conclusion of the game. The offending pitcher can not pitch again within the same game. However, the player is still eligible to participate in the same game at another position.
4. If a pitcher player has been reported 3 times by umpires for mandatory pitching relief, citing wild and reckless pitching, the league officials will notify all league coaches of the offending pitcher / player ineligible to participate as pitcher for the remainder of league play.
Be responsible,
Jeff Meeks
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| Rick
June 1, 2008
8:24:52 PM
Entry #: 2773417
| I agree with your opion. I have coached for a few years and found that some player agents and officials are so set on winning at all cost. I have also attended pitching clinics that the girls are told just throw hard. Little guidence is given to control.
Not to long ago there was a rule about hitting batters. It was three and you are out. I guess someone did not like it and had it removed.
I agree that there should be a rule.!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| softballmaniac
June 1, 2008
9:53:29 PM
Entry #: 2773572
| After reading this post my question is if you are having 6 girls per game getting hit, are they trying to get out of the way?
Having been hit myself it is in no way fun but I also know that after the first time I got hit I learned how to get out of the way of the ball.
I'm not making excuses or saying it is right but do you think this could be a double edged sword. Teaching batters to be in their toes and always ready to move wouldn't be such a bad thing either.
Being a pitcher myself I also know that pitching is not easy it takes alot of hard work and dedication to gain control...we are talking years people not weeks or even months. These girls are doing the best that they can and coaches like to give them a chance so they can redeem themselves, its hard at any age to be taken out of an inning and even harder if you are removed specifically for hitting someone. If we remove the girls immediately after hitting someone are we going to ruin their will to pitch? I can almost guarantee that Jenny Finch and Monica Abbott hit a bunch of girls when they were 10 too.
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| Dennis Cornell
June 2, 2008
8:15:02 AM
Entry #: 2773918
| I have to agree with Jeff on this. At the 10U level, girls are just starting to learn the mechanics of pitching, especially those being taught to windmill. Leaving a girl on the mound who is obviously not in control just so she can gain experience isn't the right answer. It's putting the batters at risk and isn't helping out her own team's cause by putting batters on base by either walking or hitting them. I don't know if I agree with calling out a 9 or 10 year-old to the rest of the league because she hits 3 batters in a game though. The manager has the responsibility to coach, safeguard, and provide skills and techniques to his/her young pitcher. The umpire would have the responsibility to safeguard the batter, catcher, and himself(herself) during the game. If it is introduced that a mandatory pitching change occur after 3 hit batters in one inning, that is specific to that game and should stay with that game, not broadcasting to the league that a 9 or 10 year-old, just learning to pitch is a danger.
There is another side to this that I think managers should look at. If you are putting a hard thrower on the mound, please use a catcher that can catch her consistently. Not only is your catcher at risk, but you're making life painful for the umpire who gets hit every other pitch or has to play Matrix while trying to avoid getting incoming missiles.
Good post Jeff.
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| Dee
June 2, 2008
9:47:44 AM
Entry #: 2774052
| This is a problem that our parents have brought up to us a lot this year. Does anyone think it would be benefical to have 10U slow pitch? Since it is the first year for girls to pitch, going at it slow may help get the accuracy down before they pick up the speed.
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| Jim Vykol-pitching instructor for North Glen
June 2, 2008
11:51:40 AM
Entry #: 2774283
| Before a windmill pitcher pitches in her first regular season game, she should have about six months of training and ptactice. She should also, demonstrate in practice, that she is throwing at least 50% strikes. No one should use the regular season to start teaching a girl how to pitch windmill. Also, based on Ernie Parker's advice and now, seven years of observation, I feel that the uncontrolled backswing at the beginning of the wind-up is an un-necessary impediment to developing control. Not all of my managers take my advice and managers through-out the league, go their own way. For several reasons I won't go into now, I am against removing pitchers if they hit a certain number of batters. It is far from perfect but, I think the decision to remove a pitcher should remain the manager's.
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| softballmaniac
June 2, 2008
11:53:08 AM
Entry #: 2774292
| If you teach accuracy before speed and the girls learn to throw 35 mph when they decide to throw harder the control goes anyway. If you teach them to throw hard and focus on a perfect circle it limits the # of hit batsman bc the ball generally stays around the plate. Of course you will see some thrown in the dirt that will hit batters if they don't try and move out of the way or if they do try to move out of the way and accidentally move toward the ball. I know I'm going to get a lot of stuff for saying this but its part of the game girls are still getting hit at the college world series by some of the best pitchers in the country.
If you implement slow pitch at 10 and under then you will face the same problems your talking about here only at 12 and under when the girls are much stronger and have the ability to throw harder.
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| Rich Mooney
June 2, 2008
4:33:17 PM
Entry #: 2774845
| Jeff,
I appreciate your comments although I tend to disagree with some of your facts. As much as I would like to give you a complete response, I don’t have time right now. My primary concern is preparing for the playoff tournaments. I will address this issue when time permits. However, I will take the time to comment on a few of your concerns.
……as a concerned coach and parent I want share information on what I perceive could suggest negligence.
• “A player is liable in tort if his conduct is such that it is either deliberate, willful or with a reckless disregard for the safety of other player so as to cause injury to the other players.”
Addressing liability and negligence: I don’t believe these pitchers are purposely throwing at or being instructed to throw at the batters who are being hit. They are girls trying to learn the art of wind mill pitching. Think about this: is the coach of the hit batter responsible for teaching the batter to get out of the way of a pitched ball? My experience has been that girls don’t get out of the way; they either freeze or defend. Is the pitcher liable for breaking the fingers or hand of a batter who, rather than avoiding the pitch, throws up her hand in defense? Is the batter’s coach responsible because they didn’t teach the batter to move? Or is the batter responsible? Who is responsible for the bruise on the arm or leg, complete with stitch marks, of the batter who didn’t move? I, like you, am not a lawyer and don’t know the answers. What I do know is that the pitchers who are hitting batters while wind milling are throwing the ball around the plate. They are doing this because they have practiced pitching during the off season. Are they perfect? No. Do they walk more batters than they strike out? No. The scorebooks will verify this. On the other hand, the coaches who allow girls to learn how to wind mill, during games and without prior instruction, are probably more guilty of an infraction than their counterparts. These girls have absolutely no idea where the ball is going. Check out THEIR walk to strikeout ratio. They don’t hit batters because they are nowhere around the plate. On deck batter, beware!
Before the league enters the playoffs it's the perfect time to institute a rule……….
In accordance with the Constitution and By Laws of the NCCGSL, rule changes are not allowed after the Registration Meeting in March. New rules or changes are considered after the end of the current season.
………..that stops pitchers with clear and obvious control issues from using opposing batters as fast pitch target practice.
Your term “target practice” insinuates intent. Most of the pitchers I have seen with “clear and obvious control issues” are NOT the girls who have practiced in the off season and are throwing heat. These girls very seldom, if ever, walk 9 batters in an inning and force in 5 runs. THAT is a control issue!
The umpire, the acting as the league official, will ensure all players and coaches follow the pitching standard set here within. The umpire will discuss the scope of the rules and expected standards (listed below) during the pre-game coaches’ discussion.
NOTE: This rule is observed based on the umpire’s discretion. It applies where batters make reasonable efforts to remove themselves from harms way to due to a wild pitch. If a reasonable effort is not observed or exercised by the batter, 1st base by dead ball is not awarded to the batter and the pitcher is not penalized for with a reckless pitch for hitting the batter. Game play is stopped in this instance and the offensive coach must counsel the batter.
For the record: The batter is awarded first base whenever she is hit by a pitched ball as long as she did not swing, regardless of the speed of the ball or whether or not she tried to get out of the way. If the pitch is coming in at 100 MPH and she raises her hand and blocks the pitch, she gets first base. If the ball rolls toward her at 2 MPH, killing 47 worms before gently touching her foot, she gets first base.
1. If a pitcher hits any opposing team batter with a wild pitch twice within a game, at the time of the 2nd occurrence the umpire must stop the game to render an official warning about dangerous play to both coaches and to the offending pitcher. At conclusion of the official warning the defensive coach must make a mandatory visit to the pitching mound to counsel his pitcher.
2. If a pitcher hits any opposing team batter with a wild pitch three times within one game, the umpire must stop game play to order a mandatory pitching change. The offending pitcher can not pitch again within the same game. However, the player is still eligible to participate in the same game at another position.
3. If a pitcher hits any opposing team batter with a wild pitch three times within the same inning, the umpire must stop game play to order a mandatory pitching change. The umpire will record the name, number and team name of the offending pitching and report the information to the league officials (vice-president & director) at the conclusion of the game. The offending pitcher can not pitch again within the same game. However, the player is still eligible to participate in the same game at another position.
4. If a pitcher player has been reported 3 times by umpires for mandatory pitching relief, citing wild and reckless pitching, the league officials will notify all league coaches of the offending pitcher / player ineligible to participate as pitcher for the remainder of league play.
I understand, in theory, what you are trying to accomplish. However, using the rules above, you have probably eliminated the worm killer from pitching for life. The hard thrower who may have unintentionally hurt an opposing player is still in the game.
This topic was discussed at our last Board meeting. You can write all the rules you want. If they don’t hold someone responsible, they are useless.
My opinion, which is not shared by a majority of the Board members, is this:
1) If a pitcher hits 3 batters in an inning, she must be removed as pitcher and the manager is ejected.
2) If a pitcher hits 4 batters in a game, she must be removed as pitcher and the manager ejected.
3) This is across the board, without regard to speed of pitch or attempt to avoid
While we are on the subject of liability, there is no “must slide” rule. There IS an “avoid collision” rule. A “must slide” rule means that the League recognizes that every manager and organization has someone on their staff who is competent in teaching the art of sliding and, therefore, willing to assume responsibility. That is not the case.
UMPIRES: Take Note! Your job is to enforce the rules, not to make them.
The NCCGSL rules protect you IF YOU FOLLOW THEM!
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| concerned mom
June 2, 2008
10:21:30 PM
Entry #: 2775386
| I totally agree with Jeff on this one. Too many girls are getting hit. Period. I have read some comments about teaching the girls to get out of the way. That is human nature to move out of the way of danger and they are being taught to move also. However their reaction time at 10U is not that far developed when facing a pitcher that fast. Especially if it is a new player who never played before.
I read a concern about "ruining" a pitcher if she is removed for hitting someone. What about the batters? Is anyone worried about them getting "ruined"? I have personally seen girls get hit and now they are still scared to hit. Even when it is a different pitcher or game. Being hit at this age stays with them a long time. And when they have to face that same pitcher again after she has hit a few of her teammates, she is sensibly going to be scared. We need to worry about ALL of the players, not just the pitchers.
I agree that the pitchers at this age are still learning the mechanics and they need to pitch. But that is why they practice outside of games as well.I don't think it is asking too much to remove them if they don't have it all together on a particular day. That is something they will have to get use to as they get older. If a pitcher hits that many batters in the older age groups, she will be removed. No one questions that. Why are we questioning it at this age group?
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| softballmaniac
June 3, 2008
9:38:25 AM
Entry #: 2775823
| I'm not saying that a girl shouldn't be removed if she hits 3 or more kids a game and I know the first message says 6 hit batsman per game for a total of 24 girls hit. If that is true and no exaggeration being made about this and the coach leaves one pitcher in that hits 6 girls then yes changes need to be made and the coach needs to penalized.
IF there are 6 girls getting hit from 3 different pitchers that is quite a different story. That means they hit on average 2 batters each and were removed right?
All I'm trying to say is that we need to stress the importance of staying on our toes in the batters box, is there anything so terrible about that? Should there be a rule that if a girls gets hit while batting more than once she should be removed from the game? This is after all what we are saying about the pitchers. The batters not trying to get hit just as the pitcher is not trying to hit someone.
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| Softball Mom
June 3, 2008
4:20:08 PM
Entry #: 2776549
| Jeff, Do not assume that this occurs in only 10 and under. It occurs at all levels. It is atrocious that this is allowed. There used to be a rule that if a pitcher hit three girls they were removed from that game. Why was this rule eliminated? Who eliminated this rule? I know a pitching coach that encourages fast pitching at the expense of control. We were also at a game last year where a pitcher hit a girl during the game and her mom yelled at the batter, "How does that feel?" The umpire did nothing. I think for one of the older pitchers in the league it is a form of intimidation. Need I say more.
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| Softball Mom
June 3, 2008
4:52:32 PM
Entry #: 2776609
| Jeff, Since the umpire and the manager did nothing at your game you should have forfeited the game so your girls did not get busted up and it would have sent a message that it is not just about winning. You would have shown the girls that you have integrity to protect them even at the expense of losing a game. Maybe administration would take this seriously. I am 100% sure that I know which organization you were playing. It is common knowledge although they would vehemently deny it. You presented yourself in a very professional manner. They probably won't bring the 3 pitcher hit rule back because they would lose games.
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| Softball Maniac
June 3, 2008
10:21:49 PM
Entry #: 2777139
| Just a quick question, if anyone of you had the chance to have one of these so called wild pitchers trade sides and pitch for your team would you allow her to pitch or make her sit?
Lets face it softball games are dependant upon pitching, the only way pitchers get better is to pitch in the gym, pitch outside and to pitch from a pitching rubber in a game against batters.
I will just clarify this one point...if you implement a 3 hit batsman rule, most of the time it would have no effect on the # of batters getting hit per game as it was stated above the team threw 3-4 hard throwing pitchers who hit 6 of his girls. If you can figure out the average on this it equals 2 or less hit batsman per pitcher. So the 3 hit batsman rule would not even have come into play, and you will be in the same boat then we would be having another discussion about what new rule we needed to have in place to correct the rule you want implemented.
Lets just make a rule thats says if a team hits 2 batters in an entire game the entire team should be suspended for endagering the batters.
Come on, let's get real, its a game and with all games there is a chance of people getting hurt pitchers, catchers, umpires, left fielder everyone participates AT THEIR OWN RISK.
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| Another softball mom
June 4, 2008
5:31:09 PM
Entry #: 2778681
| Softball maniac, I think you're missing the point. I am a parent on the team Jeff is referring to as being hit by pitches. He is not exaggerating. Our manager HAS taught the girls to move out of the way, but they are still being hit, and they really are being hurt. I'm not terribly concerned about how the pitcher feels about being removed from the game; she's probably already upset that she hit another girl (unless she has some sadistic streak no one knows about) and the stress from that alone is going to make her following pitches that much less consistant, and more apt to hit another batter. I think that the managers should be counseling their girls each time they hit someone, and should voluntarily remove a pitcher who has hit three batters, whether in one inning or an entire game. If managers would do this, it would make a new rule unnecessary. Unfortunately, there are some managers out there who are "living the dream" through their teams, and therefore, I agree with Jeff that a rule must be made. It is irresponsible for there not to be some kind of rule or guideline regarding this, and I think thats what we're all looking for. We want our girls to have fun, and learn the game of softball, not be discouraged because they or their teammates are getting hit by pitches.
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| softball dad
June 4, 2008
7:41:42 PM
Entry #: 2778861
| This is getting ridiculous my daughter has been hit before and she shook it off and took her base. Recently 8 girls were hit in the same inning they shook it off and took there base. The way i see it if they cant get out of the way of a wild pitch how in the heck are they going to connect with a bat. Maybe you mad parents should start your own slow pitch organization.
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| softball maniac
June 4, 2008
9:42:43 PM
Entry #: 2779001
| I'm not missing the point and I understand completely that it sucks to get hit, but we all knew when we signed our girls up that this was FASTPITCH softball and I should think that we knew that there was a good chance our child was going to get hit. At least I did.
I don't want anyone to think that I'm saying all the blame is on the batter but at the same time it doesn't all fall on the pitcher either. Accidents happen, girls get bruises, sometimes they break bones but aren't they just as likely to break bones or get bruises out riding their bikes? Are we going to implement a rule that says all sidewalks or streets that kids ride their bikes on have a protective covering to prevent this from happening? No, we are going to tell our kids that they can't ride thier bike anymore or we are going to find some type of protective covering like helmets, elbow pads, or knee pads to protect them. And we realize that everytime they get on the bike there is a chance that something could happen. The same is true for any sport, contact or not.
And I'll say it again, if you implement the 3 hit batsman rule there is still a possibility of having 6 or more girls hit depending on the # of pitchers you put in that game. Adding this rule will not affect the # of hit batsman...thats the point.
Pithers who are instructed are taught to throw hard and with proper mechanics (which can take years to become consistant) if they can do this the ball should generally be near the plate. How many of the batters are being hit cleanly..meaning in the middle of the thigh, hip, butt or back vs how many are being hit from balls that have hit the ground first and then hit them in the feet, shins or ankles? A ball that bounces on the ground should be a little easier to react to and try and move out of the way.
I understand that we as parents want to protect our child and if they get hit we want someone to be responsible, but how do you think the parents of the pitcher feel? Do you think they are happy their kid hit your kid? And how do you think they feel when the coaches of the hitbatsman bad mouths their child for hitting a batter? Not to mention how the kid feels that hits someone.
JMO.
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| Lady O's Player
June 4, 2008
9:53:21 PM
Entry #: 2779019
| I am a player on the 12under Lady Orioles select team. I have been hit by pitches before. It can be frightening the first time, but that is one of the risks you must take to play the game. Every player plays at their own risk. If they are too concerned about getting hit to even step in the batters box, then I believe that person is in the wrong sport. I have been now pitching for five years and sometimes you DO lose control of the ball and hit a batter. If this happens with a lot of experience, I can understand that this will happen on a 10under team, when some girls are just starting out. If a pitcher consistently hits batters, I think that person should be removed from pitching that game. BUT, I do not think this should be a rule. The coach of that team should be able to decipher that on his/her own. I highly doubt that a coach would let a pitcher hit more then 3 girls and not take her out. I say this because that causes the runner to get on base, and possibly score. Not to mention also, the batters safety.
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| Silently Reading
June 4, 2008
10:08:08 PM
Entry #: 2779046
| Geez even a 12 yr old gets it.
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| another softball mom
June 5, 2008
11:21:35 AM
Entry #: 2779713
| The managers are NOT removing these girls from the game after they've hit 3 or more batters. They are letting them continue to pitch, and they are still hitting more girls.
Where is the sense in that? Is this game so important that you would sacrifice the health and safety of another child, not to mention the emotional and mental health of the pitcher just to win?
I still believe that managers should remove these girls from the mound VOLUNTARILY. If they would do that, a new rule would NOT be necessary.
I understand that pitching takes a while to learn, and perfect. I understand girls are going to be hit, but I still think its a risk that could be minimized.
Kids DO get hurt doing other things. My kids play softball, baseball, and soccer, plus ride bikes, scooters, and generally be kids. But if I can do something to lessen the severity of the hurt then I do that, just as I'm doing here.
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| Softball maniac
June 5, 2008
1:00:40 PM
Entry #: 2779882
| So what you want me to believe is that in the above message from JEff that all 6 of the girls in all 4 of the games played were hit by 1 pitcher in each of the games????
I think that is a bunch of bologna. No coach in their right mind would leave a kids in if they hit that many batters. No matter how much they like to win.
I think 6 girls are getting hit after replacing the pitchers multiple times a game..if this is the case then the coaches are replacing the girls VOLUNTARILY are they not??
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| another softball mom
June 5, 2008
2:19:11 PM
Entry #: 2779999
| I think that at this point, you want to be angry, and therefore are deliberately misunderstanding. Well, then have at it.
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| softball maniac
June 5, 2008
4:04:33 PM
Entry #: 2780206
| I am not angry and I really am trying to see things from both perspectives I just really think all this talk about making up new rules is silly.
Most of the time the rule that you all want made permanant are followed even though its not a rule. Stuff happens girls..batters and pitchers have bad days and we all play at our own risk. I knew that when I signed my daughter up just as I'm sure you knew it when you signed ur daughter up.
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| Softball Mom
June 5, 2008
4:35:02 PM
Entry #: 2780279
| The same pitcher repeatedly hitting girls is unacceptable. In my opinion the manager needs to be reported. How in the world are you going to let your child sit there and watch them get hit by that pitcher pitch after pitch. Softball maniac, it sounds as if you raised some scrappy kids. Your sarcasm is ridiculous. Why don't we put them in bubble rap. Maybe Mr. Mooney could tell us why the rule was abolished. Evidently for a time it served some purpose. I hope we can hear from him on this. I think the pitcher doesn't have decent control even at 10 they should not be pitching. My daughter pitches and if she hit girl after girl I would be asking the manager to take her out. It is simply common courtesy.
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| Rich Mooney
June 5, 2008
5:01:19 PM
Entry #: 2780332
| The rule was not abolished; it was never there.
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| softball maniac
June 5, 2008
5:13:59 PM
Entry #: 2780358
| I agree a pitcher that doesn't have control shouldn't be allowed to pitch but just keep in mind that everyones definition of control is different for me it might be the girl that walks in 5 runs for 3 straight innings due to her lack of control for you it might be a girl that hits 1 batter every inning for 3 innings due to her lack of control. Everyones opinion is different, and honestly its a beautiful thing that it is that way but since we removed all the pitchers without control...who is going to pitch during the games??
And Yes I know sarcasm usually gets me in trouble.
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| soft ball dad
June 5, 2008
9:57:44 PM
Entry #: 2780752
| all you have to do is get a slow pitch sissy organazation together and we wont have this problem. get over it its part of the game if you kid cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen
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| Rich Mooney
June 5, 2008
10:03:01 PM
Entry #: 2780768
| This exchange can continue for eternity. It has been a good discussion with everyone making valid points. I also think everyone has tried to be open minded enough to try to understand the view from the other side while voicing their opinions. This is pretty much the discussion we have had on NUMEROUS occasions in the NCCGSL Board meetings. Every time a motion is made on this subject, it is defeated, no matter how much tweaking is done. Because of the extreme variances of pitching expertise, there are positives and negatives to every argument but, apparently, no middle ground. To be honest, a rule should not be necessary but each coach has a different philosophy. Is there a right or wrong?
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| softball dad
June 5, 2008
10:04:28 PM
Entry #: 2780772
| hey for all you moms and dads worried about your kids getting hit by a ball, i heard they have badmitten starting oh my the birdie might hit them god forbid.
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| Rich Mooney
June 5, 2008
10:39:58 PM
Entry #: 2780842
| softball dad,
I think a slow pitch league for the girls would be a good thing. I have already addressed the subject with the league. The girls (parents?) who are more intense could stay with fast pitch while the girls who just want to play some form of "baseball" for fun could play slow pitch. Between the ages of 12 and 16, many girls stop playing. Is it because they are afraid of getting hit by the pitchers? Is it because the parents are too intense? Is it because, as the pitchers get better, they, as hitters, cannot compete and, as fielders, are bored? It is this and many other reasons. If you are the parent of a daughter and she decides to stop playig fast pitch, would you rather she play organized slow pitch or find something else to do? I realize I have left myself open for a smart a** answer but the truth is this: that "something else" will probably not include you or other adults in a supervisory role. Each of us has our opinion of what the "sissy" sports are. Soccer? Volleyball? Cheerleading? What's better, supervised sissy sports or "something else"?
NOTE: Soccer, volleyball and cheerleading are all bonafide sports, although their "sissydom" has been questioned.
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| Softball maniac
June 5, 2008
11:12:05 PM
Entry #: 2780883
| I'm sure some people out there think I'm crazy and probably one of those coaches that would do anything to win, truth is I don't care if we win or lose as long as we play the game well.
I have always felt that slow pitch is in fact "Sissy Pitch" and not much will probably change my mind on that.
The goal for my child is to teach her as much as I can about life and softball to allow her to succeed. When it comes to life our kids are going to get knocked down, scolded, ridiculed nad someone is always going to be better than they are all I can do is is teach her how to pick herself up, thats what makes a true winner afterall. You can learn alot from softball...including getting hit.
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| Just a Dad
June 6, 2008
3:43:46 AM
Entry #: 2781045
| It sounds to me like some of you are in the wrong place. It sounds like you and your daughters should be playing select ball (travel ball). O wait, its easer to have a good player look like a star in rec. ball. If she is a Jenny Finch (wan-to-be) rec is not the place to play. We talk about safety for the kids. What about throwing the bat. I guess we should not throw out batters who throw the bat more then once. There seems to be a rule for that. I guess we should put the pitchers on a pedestal and let them have target practice the whole game. We are really talking about rec ball folks. Its not the major leagues. We have four outfielders and everyone bats.
I would suggest to the coaches and clinic directors that if a girl has control problems that they try teaching control and less about throwing hard. If you think just throwing hard is the answer you really are missing the point. Its about throwing strikes and not taking out batters. It is true that new pitchers need time to develop. Teach them control first and then move on to speed.
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| Just a Pitching Instructor
June 6, 2008
10:00:19 AM
Entry #: 2781264
| Just a Dad,
I am a local pitching instructor who has students who range in age from 7-19. In Baseball the boys are taught control first and speed 2nd. In softball...the majority of your well respected pitching coaches will teach the girls the proper mechanics which includes the following good drive with the legs off the mound, fast arm speed, perfect circle, dragging their pivot foot through, ending in a fielding position, and using their step foot(back foot on the mound)as resistance, all of which will make the girls throw harder they do not have to try and throw hard it naturally happens because they have good mechanics.
Most of the kids I work with are rec ball players and thier parents bring them to me bc their organization doesn't offer any windmill pitching instruction and the parents don't know enough about it to help their child. So I think you may be misguided when you say some of these girls should go play select ball. I'm sure some of them are really good, not just as pitchers but as players as a whole bc the pitcher has to catch the ball 45 times an inning from the catcher so of course she is going to be better than the left fielder who never sees the ball..unless the girls parents take her outside to play catch everyday of the week to help her get better.
Organizations such as Harundale, SAC and NG offer pitching clinics to their players and because of this they probably have better/faster pitchers than most of the other organizations in the league. If you want to complete talk to a pitching instructor about facilitating a pitching clinic for your organization there are many of them in AA county.
And before all the blame is put on the instructors it is our job to teach the girls proper mechanics so they do not get injured, if we do our job you will continue to see faster pitching even in rec ball. At some point these other leagues are going to have to get on the bus or jump off.
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| Steve G 8 and under coach
June 6, 2008
10:26:48 AM
Entry #: 2781306
| Teaching and clinics are exactly what is needed........the whole jump on and jump off statement is a little off if i may say so sir. If the organizations that do not have clinics were to walk away, there would not be much of a league left.......you possibly could still have a 10 and under with the 3 you mention but what about after that? These other organizations give these good pitchers someone to practice against.
Point is this...........we are all playing in what is supposed to be a community league; therefore at some point we should share resources and offer league wide clinics which would make more organizations better and therefore make the league better as a whole.
Anyone who has watched this game understands it is all about pitching.....if you have it you win if you don't you struggle and I think that is more of the real issue here.....the faster pitchers are probably playing for the teams that are destroying the other squads and they have to take that whipping and get some of the batters hurt too which is tough for anyone to swallow.
teaching competition and winning is what i am about, but if I know my organization may have some skills to offer then i would offer them to all the girls even if they play elsewhere and maybe do it for a nominal fee that could be put back into the organization for the girls. personally for the last two years, I have tried to coach the 8 and under girls we played against just as much as my own girls since I spend half of the game on the field with the other team since I am pitching.
A lot of these girls end up at some of the same highschools and end up playing with or aginst each other on that level, so why not do everything we can to make them all better now......when someone has a legitimate concern, let's see what we can do constructively about it and not spend 20 hours posting messages behind nicknames.
i am the Athletics 8 and under coach and my name and number is listed, so if anyone would like to discuss this with me, give me a call and let's see what we can do as a community to help ALL OF THE GIRLS!
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| concerned mom
June 6, 2008
10:46:11 AM
Entry #: 2781348
| softballmaniac,
If you re-read the post that Jeff made you will notice that 4 batters were hit by ONE pitcher and NOTHING was done. The coach din't go out to the pitcher and try to calm her down or help her out. And if there was a rule for this, it would most definitely apply in this case. So we wouldn't be in the "same boat". 4 girls weren't hit by 2 or 3 pitchers in this case. Just the one.
So that is the problem. Not that girls are getting hit. We all know and understand that this is a possibility and the pitchers are still learning. We all know our girls need to stay on their toes while batting and move when they can. I agree with all of these things. However, repeated hits by the SAME pitcher should be stopped. Right now nothing is happening. The coaches who should have voluntarily taken their pitcher out did not do so.
For those of you who don't think there needs to be a rule about this because their pitchers aren't hitting that many batters, why not have a rule? If it won't effect you, why fight it? It isn't going to hurt anyone if you think it's not happening anyway. And if the coaches "should" be removing their pitchers anyway, then this will just assure that they will.
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| Concerned Mom
June 6, 2008
11:34:49 AM
Entry #: 2781436
| Pasted below in quotes is a portion of Jeffs Post, it clearly states that 1 girl hit a batter a 2nd pitcher came in and hit 3 additional batters and in the 2nd paragraph it states that after 3-4 pitching changes 6 girls were hit.
So again the rule would not have affected the # of batters hit. The coach took the girl out after hitting 3 batters. In the 2nd paragraph it says the pitcher hit 4 girls...this could mean 4 girls in 3 inning or 4 girls in 1 inning. 4 girls in one inning is unnacceptable 1 an inning is actually not horrible, in my opinion...and yes my child has been hit this year pretty hard right on the ankle bone leaving a bruise with stitch marks and everything. Yes she cried, pretty bad I might ad but she sucked it up and took her base still crying and played the rest of the game. She too was scared to get back in the box and was always on the defensive but has since overcome the fear enough to keep both hands on the bat. That makes her a champion in my eyes no matter what the score is. Let's face it there is a lot that we can complain about in softball, with the world in the schools etc. A lifes lesson for my child is that sometimes people are going to do and say things to you that really hurt, physically, emotionally, spiritually, but what makes a Champion is how you deal with adversity, do you complain until someone is blamed for it or do you stand up shake it off, forgive and forget and move on with life?? People all make mistakes, coaches and parents alike, did the coach make a mistake leaving the girl in that hit 4 batters yes, did the coach who talked badly about the pitcher loud enough for her to hear make a mistake, yes. We are all human and no rule is going to change that.
"I watched an opposing 10U team pitcher warming-up at the beginning of a game throwing heat but only getting about 1 in 10 pitches in the strike zone. Immediately I’m thinking someone’s going to get hit. They did! She hit our players. Another girl was brought in with the same speed and the same lack of control. In one of the innings she pitched, 3 of our girls got hit. 2 of the girls now had to sit out of the game due to injury. One of players required an ice pack for first aid. I raised a protest to recklessness which resulted in a curt discussion at the plate with the opposing coach and umpire. This pitcher was allowed to remain in the game for another inning. She hit another one of our players. The score for this game was 6 girls hit by the opposing team, 0 girls hit by our girls.
We played another team from the same organization. At the beginning, to my surprise no girls were hit. By the 6th inning after 3-4 opposing pitching changes we had 6 girls hit again; 4 by one pitcher. We observed the opposing coach never approached the mound to discuss the issue with the player. Three girls were hit in one inning. One girl was injured causing her to temporarily sit out for an inning to administer an ice pack for minor first aid. The last had to sit out of the game due to injury which left us a player short in the final inning. After the game, our last girl injured was taken to Night-time Pediatrics (there’s documentation for that). The score in this game once again was 6 girls hit by the opposing team 0 girls hit by our girls."
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| Softball maniac
June 6, 2008
11:37:54 AM
Entry #: 2781443
| My fault the above post is from me it was addressed to Concerned mom.
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| Dee
June 6, 2008
12:23:23 PM
Entry #: 2781503
| Rich,
You stated "For the record: The batter is awarded first base whenever she is hit by a pitched ball as long as she did not swing, regardless of the speed of the ball or whether or not she tried to get out of the way. If the pitch is coming in at 100 MPH and she raises her hand and blocks the pitch, she gets first base. If the ball rolls toward her at 2 MPH, killing 47 worms before gently touching her foot, she gets first base."
This hasn't been the case in any of the games
we've played this year. If the ball touches the ground before it hits the batter, she hasn't gotten the base. Also, one girl had a strike called against her because "she didn't make an attempt to get out of the way". Is what you said true? Is it stated somewhere where so the umps can see this?
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| Rich Mooney
June 6, 2008
1:04:02 PM
Entry #: 2781554
| Dee,
PONY Rules and Regulations, Page 58, Rule 9, Section 2.f.
f. (FP ONLY) When a pitched ball, not struck at or not called a strike, touches any
part of the batter’s person or clothing while she is in the batter’s box. It does not
matter if the ball strikes the ground before hitting her. The batter’s hands are not
to be considered as part of the bat.
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| concerned mom
June 6, 2008
4:17:52 PM
Entry #: 2781890
| Softball maniac,
I did re-read the post and it explains exactly what happened. 4 girls got hit by ONE pitcher.It doesn't or shouldn't matter how many innings that was in. 4 from the same pitcher is an obvious lack of control. In another game one pitcher hit 3 girls in ONE inning. Either way nothing was done.
“....Another girl was brought in with the same speed and the same lack of control. IN ONE OF THE INNINGS SHE PITCHED, 3 OF OUR GIRLS GOT HIT. 2 of the girls now had to sit out of the game due to injury...”
"...By the 6th inning after 3-4 opposing pitching changes we had 6 girls hit again; 4 BY ONE PITCHER. We observed the opposing coach never approached the mound to discuss the issue with the player..."
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| Softball maniac
June 6, 2008
5:05:23 PM
Entry #: 2781965
| I have read and reread the post by Jeff. It is the opinion of Jeff that the girl was out of control because she hit his players. But a question for you to consider is this what constitutes control? Does throwing the ball behind the catcher every pitch = control? Does throwing it behind the batter = control? Does throwing it around the plate and hitting the batter on occasion = control? Because this is what we see game after game after game.
Its all in the eyes of the beholder. Most of the girls that do not hit batters are no where near the plate. But we're not arguing about their control are we? Keeping the ball around the plate moves the games along, give the other team a chance to hit and makes it a little more bareable to stand in left or right field during the inning, on the contrary watching a walk fest leads to a really boring game where noone pays attention and no one swings the bat. How do you learn the game if you don't have anything to swing at? The so called "Wild" pitchers we are talking about are around the plate and every now and then hit someone. I think if you were to ask every team in the league about the # of hit batsman in a game, you would find out that the average # of hit batsman is much lower than 6 per game. Keep in mind that i'm not saying that it didn't happen or can't happen.
I said above that it was a mistake for the coach to leave the girl in that hit 4 batters in the game, but we all make mistakes do we not?
And I'll ask this one more time, if one of the hard throwers played for your team would you pitch her or make her play left field? If you answer this honestly the answer is let her pitch.
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| softball dad
June 6, 2008
9:05:21 PM
Entry #: 2782219
| mr. mooney no smart remarks back to you my daughter loves the game to much to stop. shes been hit before but she stays in there. i guess its her love for the game.
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| Team Mom
June 7, 2008
4:12:45 PM
Entry #: 2782740
| I think if you parents are SO concerned about the control of our pitchers then maybe you should collect money and get the organizations pitching instrustors. My daughter was tossed in at the age of 10 to pitch and had NEVER done it before and it was her 2nd year ever playing ball.( we were not given any pitchers so we had to make pitchers from the girls we were given) With practice at home and on the field she has done pretty good so far. She had been pitching for 3 years and hit her first batter this season, actually in the playoffs. It gets frustrating reading all this about what rules should be put into affect. There are several rules that are not there and are at the umps mercy, that I feel should be rules but that is my OPINION as a parent. If you watch college softball, which my family has been, they hit girls and shake it off. If a pitcher hits one girl or 10 girls, they should say sorry and get on with the game. These girls are not hitting a batter on purpose, and the coach is not letting it happen on purpose. What coach wants to let his girls hit these players, they get a base which can lead to a run. As for this one coach, maybe it is his first year coaching and needs a little help. I think offering positve support to him instead of doubting his ability to coach is where we need to start. How do you guys think this poor pitcher feels is she is reading this? She is a kid and you all are adults, positive works better then all this negative I am reading. If the pitcher is reading this, you are doing fine and with a little practice you will get the hang of it. Think positive and it will all work out.
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| softball coach/dad
June 7, 2008
5:12:13 PM
Entry #: 2782755
| To All,
It sounds like two issues are at play here; pitching, and safety. Some organizations have 8U coach pitch. Some organizations do not. But then we go right into full windmill pitching for 10U. So the kids in the organizations where mom/dad pitch them beach balls and the organizations where their girls first year is 10U both have to face girls who have been “practicing” windmill. It’s not that it’s not fair, it’s an illogical progression to try to teach our kids. Isn’t that why we are here, to teach them? Sure the pitchers can and want to attempt to pitch windmill with control and velocity, they have nothing to fear. But the newer younger players/batters do. It’s a natural reaction to move out of the way. I haven’t seen 1 girl freeze this year. But I know that it can happen. All kids are different. Why would we subject the newer younger players to this and discourage them from wanting to play the game.
From the Website.
MISSION STATEMENT
The Mission of the NCCGSL is to provide a team,
in a supervised, safe, and fun environment,
for any girl age 4 through 19 who wants to play fast pitch softball, regardless of her talent level.
Supervised by responsible managers and coaches (not implying that someone isn’t)
Safe as we can make it for all girls to play
Fun environment for all girls to learn to play and love the game
Regardless of their talent level because they should have a chance to try
I’ve had one younger girl hit in game #4 and hasn’t swung the bat since, and she had hits in the previous games. By the way, 7 girls were hit in that game by 3 pitchers. Now, she won’t swing and wants to back out on almost all pitches. She was ruined for the season. That’s the real shame. Maybe she won’t come back next year. You take a pitcher out and who are you kidding, she not ruined for the season. Maybe she will be for the day. But she’ll be back. I’ve taken 2 of my pitchers out. Sure they were upset, crying and whatever. Not because they hit batters but because they were embarrassed for being pulled. That’s part of the game too. I gave them the explanations why after the game and they pitched even better the rest of the year.
By at least one umpires account there once was a rule that did not allow windmill in 10U. If this was true maybe the league should review that past rule for next year. The 10U girls should learn control and accuracy first. Why do they need to windmill? Are they going to play for other select teams or had they already? Are they prepping for after league tourneys? Or are they are preparing for 12U. Well in any case that’s OK, practice all you can. Be the best you can be. Just pitch slingshot in 10U. You can still pitch fast. You can still be ready for the move up. It’ll just be with more control. By then 12U girls will have had live pitching/ batting experience. They will be ready and know what to expect. For those who the game did not set will be trying some other activity after 10U. All your pitching clinics can still go on being taught. This isn’t about how many Jenny Finch’s we can produce now. But, how many girls can keep interested later. The 10U game can be very boring. The game will be about the circle later. Right now in 10U they should all be able to play game without fear.
From the “White Pages” G I V E T H E M A L L A C H A N C E ! !
But DO NOT discourage the younger girls who are trying to find their love of the game. Some girls are tougher that others and they’ll probably go on playing. Some girls have to find that tough love for the game. After all that’s what it takes to play a game where you could be in jeopardy. So let’s get and keep more girls interested in the game. I think that is the general idea for a league, is for it to grow. Not to pick off our own. That is select ball.
Maybe the organizations who do not agree on this should start a select team as well as having rec. teams. Not every girl will be on it. But they will have higher competition. Competition will make you better player. When you play girls at your own level you’ll get even better. When you over power the Rec. teams you are only giving yourself false security of how good you think you are as a team/player and setting yourself up for a let down.
PONY Girls Softball (Protect Our Nation's Youth).
This should all be about the girls. Not some of the bashing we’ve all been reading on both sides.
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| North Glen Coach
June 7, 2008
8:30:24 PM
Entry #: 2782834
| I am a North Glen Coach, I have played rec, select and college softball. In fact I went to college on a full softball scholarship for
windmill pitching.
I have pretty decent pitchers that play for me (2 out of the 3 are 1st year pitchers and I have 4 other who want to pitch)..probably because I know how to teach it. The girls on my team range from age 8-10 as do every other teams, we have kids who have never played softball at all and we have some that have played 4 or more years.
My coaching philosophy is to teach the girls the game, I expect the same from the girl that has never played as I do from the girl that has played 4 years. My kids can catch, throw and field the ball and hit very well. If they don't do these things well, I feel like I'm not doing my job.
I'll admit my ultimate goal for the girls on my team is select ball, because I want to instill the love that I have for the game in each and everyone of them. Some will go on to play more competitively, some won't, I realize this although I must admit I feel a twing of guilt when I hear a girl say she doesn't like it that much and I try to find out why most of the time its bc the game is too boring not bc they get hit by a wild pitch.
The county offerd free coaching clinics this year and while I was only able to attend one of those my understanding is that there could have been a much higher turn out. People donated their time to teach the rec ball coaches in this county how to organizae a practice how to windmill pitch, even offering free services to the organizations. And didn't get that many people to show up.
I kind of agree with Softball Maniac that the girls that are hitting batters do so because they are closer to the plate than the other pitchers. If you have to throw 7 pitches up to 9 batters per inning somewhere in there you may slip up and hit one or even a few 7x9=63 pitches or 189 in 3 innings if the max is thrown on all batters. I think there would still be a chance of girls getting hit even if the pitchers had 2 or more years experience.
I talk to my parents about the things their child needs to work on to improve and I'm very lucky to have been blessed with parents that take their kids home and actually work with them, they play catch, they take them to the batting gages etc.
I think removing the pitcher should be the decision of the coach for many many reasons, one is because I have been there I was the fast pitcher who hit someone and had parents flip out. Its a game, girls will continue to get hit from now until they stop playing. My daughter actually played in the Dept of Recs league last spring and they do not allow windmill pitching in 10U. The games moved much faster than they do here, the girls had a chance to hit and field, but you know what...girls still got hit by pitchers that threw fairly quick for slingshot.
I don't want to argue about rules I just want the girls to be able to play ball with out having some parent or coach flip out and start arguing in the middle of the game, whatever allows this dream to come true we should do it.
Rich Mooney posted a request for a Rules Evaluation committee, hopefully some of thefolks on here will ask for more info and sign up as I have, Its one thing to complain its another to spring into action. So the challenge has been made...sign up now!
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| Steve G 8 and under coach
June 8, 2008
7:01:25 PM
Entry #: 2783486
| Hey north glen coach......how did you find out about the free county clinics? Was it listed somewhere on the anne arundel county rec and park website or was it the ones talked about on here back in Feb?
If you have any info on that or if you know they are doing it again can you put it on this message board. thanks!
I personally need to learn all I can and be able to offer my girls the best so they want to continue to play and be successful on any level.
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| Steve g
June 9, 2008
8:50:22 AM
Entry #: 2784083
| Thanks alot i will shoot you an email soon!
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| North Glen Coach
June 11, 2008
12:16:38 PM
Entry #: 2788132
| Steve,
NCCGSL offered the clinics. I think Rich has planned to offer them next yer as well. He has some excellent instructors at these clinics including Jack Crandall, my old pitching instructor. I encourage all to attend.
I work for a local indoor baseball/softball training facility as a pitching instructor (I won't post the name on here so as to avoid looking like a true plug). We are trying to work out some deals with local rec leagues to facilitate clinics in the off season, you get the gym we will come in work with players or coaches alike. I am willing to toss ideas around to you.
Please email me at renee.ferguson@hotmail.com or call me at 410-979-3930. If you call I probably won't answer bc I don't recognize the # so just be sure to leave a message
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| Kerri
June 12, 2008
10:49:32 AM
Entry #: 2789564
| I am concerned that I now see windmill pitching in jeopardy of being eliminated in 10 and under. I understand this is a community league, but isn't it our goal, to provide a fun and competitive, learning atmosphere where the girls can learn? As a former North County player who went on to windmill pitch in several national tournaments and collegiately, I urge you not to stunt the growth of our younger athletes. Also, do not underestimate your batters. They can, and should learn to get out of the way. It is my hope to instill a love of the game in my players and to see them grow, ultimately to a level where they can take the skills learned in this community league to the next level. Anyone who has ever pitched competitively knows that when you cannot throw a strike, having your coach or umpire giving you warnings and a firm talking to is not the answer. Some days you have it, some days you cannot hit the broad side of a barn. Trust me, these young pitchers would much rather have their fastball fall in the strike zone, than hit another child. It is beyond thier control, literally. But, they need an avenue to hone thier skills. So many athletes have emerged from this organization to play for the best teams in MD, have excelled to the college level. These pitchers work year round and with passion and love of the sport to become pitchers, maybe if the hitters practiced the same dedication, they would learn to move out of the way. We should not penalize those who are trying to better their game, as it will surely affect the level of play, as well as the number of young athletes who will be interested in playing in our league.
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| softball coach/dad
June 14, 2008
11:18:18 AM
Entry #: 2792217
| Windmill should be eliminated from the 10u games. Yes it should be fun and competitive experience for “all” who play. I do not believe that if you’re not throwing windmill at 10U that you won’t get any better and would not make it on high school or college teams. The girls that go on to play for high school and/or college are quite a bit more dedicated to the sport. But in this league you “give them all a chance”. It is a Rec. league. The 10U division should be grooming more girls to play the game. You can have all the windmill pitchers you want but you need the rest of the girls to play the game. We need more players interested to play and grow the league. You are correct in not wanting to hinder the athletic growth of these young girls in “all” aspects of the game. I haven’t seen one girl stand there and take a hit by pitch without trying to move. Second year girls are definitely better at avoiding the pitch. Some of the newer girls are a bit slower to react. They are still learning and it is part of the game. But it is harder for some of them to love the game if they keep getting hit or see their teammates get hit over and over again. Of course the pitcher is not trying to hit the batter but all the windmill pitching I’ve seen this year has been very erratic and we’ve played several of the top teams who practice in the off season. I think their clinics are great. I would not discourage the teaching of the “art of windmill” at this age. We just should not use it now. I’ve seen girls pitching slingshot and did not see them hit anyone. They were also competitive, they struck out opponents, they gave up hits and they didn’t walk so many. These games were great to watch and coach. The fielders had to make plays to get outs. They learned where to throw the ball to get an out. I’m sure the other team was excited that they actually had a better chance to get a hit. The hard throwing erratic windmill team’s fielders just stand there scratching the ground with there cleats or whatever waiting to go back to the dugout. The younger kids would have thoughts running through their minds about how or if they could hit pitching that was so erratic. This league is to prepare them for the next step up. How do you do that if they don’t want come back to play. How do you instill a love for the game to the batters if the pitchers can’t throw more consistent strikes without hitting the batter with a pitch over her head, the down the middle, then in the dirt, then down the middle. There would definitely be more girls loving the game at 9-10 years old if they actually had a chance to hit the ball with a more accurate fast pitch slingshot style and the fielders were actually fielding the ball. This is a Rec. league. It seems like some of us are only concerned with the pitchers. Do not forget the rest of the players in the league. Keep girls in the league to produce a more competitive league now and in the future. That is what we should be doing is breeding more players into the league. Not making them practice dummies and hoping they’ll come back. If it is someone’s goal to be the best pitcher and practice year ‘round then they should go to a select team where everyone has risen to a higher level of play. That pitcher with what talent she has should be stepping up into a select league. If they are not good enough to pitch for a select team then the control must not be good enough. So why should they pitch windmill to Rec. league girls. That is what winter practices, private instructors and fall leagues are for. If batters are practicing year ‘round do you really think they are having pitching machines throw at them. What kind of thought is that? We should not penalize any player on either side of the ball. Let all of them learn and find their place in the game.
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| softball Maniac
June 14, 2008
10:18:19 PM
Entry #: 2792584
| Softball Dad,
You know what really upsets me with this whole conversation? Many people who see things the way you do are saying that the "fast" pitchers are using their batters for "target Practice" or "practice dummy's", none of these girls are intentionally hitting anyone and for you and the other posters to insinuate that they are is absurd. We are talking about 9-10 year old kids here.
If I understand what your saying correctly, you would like to give all kids a chance to learn the game...but if you practice in the off season you shouldn't be allowed to play in this league. So if you visit a batting gage before the season starts you need to play select ball or if you go to a softball summer camp you need to play select ball. So basically we should teach the girls how to be mediocre ball players or ship them off to play against kids who literally "live" (60 games per season)softball year round because they want to practice in the off season? Maybe I'm crazy but I thought the whole idea of coaching was to make the kids better? But I guess you and a few others only want to teach them to be a little better so as to not offend the kids that haven't found their niche in softball yet. I guess I didn't know that 9-10 year olds still need so much codiling at this age, how have my children every survived. There is always going to be someone that is better than you, and better than me but when there is, we should rise to the occasion and look at what they do that makes them better than us, right? So why would we teach our kids to complain, blame someone else, and crawl into fetal position and stay there for a week. This is exactly why kids live with their parents until they are 30 and expect to be handed everything without needing to put forth hard work and effort.
The kids that get hit need to know that they are not going to die from getting hit, they will get a nice bruise but it will get better before they are married. Getting hit a few times isn't going to cause permanant psychological damage, or maybe I'm wrong and it did in my case ;-). The girls follow the coaches and parents lead, meaning.... they will get over it quicker if you get over it quicker.
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| steve g 8 and under coach
June 16, 2008
1:31:24 PM
Entry #: 2794080
| I think too many folks have taken this subject and their OPINION a little too serious. There have been many good points given on both sides.
Now let's take all of this negativity and get something positive out of it for THE GIRLS.
to think that a 10 and under girl can shake off getting hit by a pitch the first time and run to first like nothing happened is about as likely as a whole season going by without a girl getting hit.
a previous post talked about getting all the girls involved and going back to sling shot or using the North Glen fall ball method to allow some coach pitch which eliminates a lot of the walks and gives the fielders more opportunities. I strongly believe that this type of solution promotes the best opportunities for all of the girls. If something like this is incoorporated, then when a girl gets hit by a pitch, there could be a rule that it is the offensive coaches perogative to come in and coach pitch to that child or take the base. If most girls could stand there and smack the crap out of a coach pitch ball right after getting hit, the chances are much better that they will not become trigger shy and will quickly forget about being hit.
We must remember that these girls pitching truly are not trying to hit or hurt anyone, but to expect a coach to teach a child reflexes to avoid getting hit by a ball in a 5-6 week time frame (which is what you may have with a first time player) is as absurd as the notion that people want to see someone get hit.
Bottom line is that there seems to be a need for answers whether that be someone showing coaches some drills to get there girls to move or a pitching change then so be it....I am all for a solution before I have to deal with this when my daughters play this age group.
Just to add my opinion........when my sister played 10 and under it was sling shot....12 and under they did either and then 14 and over was all windmill......my sister didn't pitch until she was 14 years old and went on to pitch for two AACO teams that went too 2 national juco championships and she was one of their two pitchers. So keeping a child from throwing windmill at 9 or 10 years old will not stunt their development.....having a girl get hit and have to go to the doctors for it could.
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| softball maniac
June 17, 2008
8:59:30 AM
Entry #: 2795307
| When your sister learned to pitch did she do it on her own or did she practice in the off season or go to an instructor?
If she learned to pitch on her own and only practiced when softball was in season then she must of been one amazing athlete.
I think its probably safe to say that in her first year as a pitcher she probably hit a few batters right? I would also think its safe to say that during her college career she probably hit a few batters. My point is girls are going to get hit, making a mandatory rule that a pitcher be removed is not going to change that.
If we are going to change the rule to 3 hit batsman and then your out then we would also need to look at the hitbatsman rule. What is in place right now states that regardless of speed or where the girls get hit they get a base. So if it is thrown 45 mph and strikes the batter in the thigh or is thrown halfway to home plate and roles landing softly against the batters shoe she gets a base and the pitcher is charged with a hit batsman.
How does this encourage the batters to move out of the way, and do you think that there will not be some "crazy" coaches that come through the game that tell their girls to take one for the team to get a unhittable pitcher out of the game.
I'm not trying to punish or blame the batters but what incentive do they have to move if this 3 hit by pitch rule is put in place?
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| Steve g
June 17, 2008
9:44:56 AM
Entry #: 2795371
| I'm sure she hit girls when she pitched, but at her fastest she only reached about 52 so most ball players probably thought that a bug had bit them =)
She worked thru some clinics in the off season to get better of course.
LOOK I'm not for pulling girls just to pull them no matter the number of batters. I am all for a rule that doesn't award a base to a girl who does not make an effort to move...I believe that should be the umpires call. I also think that the manager should retain the right to pull a pitcher but maybe some of the coaches need to make more of an effort to watch the effect the pitcher has on some girls getting hit and maybe be a little compassionate to that....believe me I have a hard time dealing with all the emotion in girls sports, but it is there and must be dealt with, some girls more than others.
Remember what I have said....this is only 10 and under and we should do whatever benefits the majority right now to keep them playing.....the pitchers will continue to pitch and work in the off season and all of that good stuff....odds are that the pitchers are probably the girls that play ball year round so pulling them from a game won't be a big deal; however if a girl gets hit and becomes shy at the plate she may never swing again.....it actually happened on my niece's team. The youngest girl on the team at 8 was actually one of the girls that made the best contact last fall and then the second or third game this year she was hit by one of the better (faster) pitchers and she never swung the bat again. These are the girls that need us to come together on this thing to make sure that they can keep playing.
Think about this.......there is no doubt that these exact type of issues are what kept a lot of organizations from putting teams in the Diamond Dazzlers which i was very disappointed was cancelled.........I want to put together the best possible product for all of the girls from the girl who may play only once to the one that goes on to play high school or more.
that is all I am saying.....you can't remove the emotion... just watch the softball world series and see all the tears shed when they make a bad play or when they lose (probably won't see that from the boys this weekend)it is just a reality that must be acknowledged.....it has taken me almost 8 years of having a daughter to realize that.
See ya all on the diamond
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| Softball Maniac
June 17, 2008
10:26:56 AM
Entry #: 2795434
| Steve,
Your post actually addresses one of the concerns that has been in the back of my mind and that is allowing younger girls (8yrs old) to play at the 10U level may be part of the problem that we are facing now. They are younger and their hand eye coordination may not be as good giving them less of shot at getting out of the way of a ball thrown quickly.
In most other sports parents keep their kids down in the approporiate age group because the risk of getting hurt seems to be less of a threat, while in softball many parents move their girls up to the next level before they are ready for it. As a parent you may not consider that your 8 year old might be standing in the box facing a pitcher that throws close to 40 mph because it is 10U and is most of the pitchers 1st year pitching.
This is of greater concern for me than making a rule to about hit batsman, and maybe why teams are having 6 girls hit per game, I'm curious as to the age of the girls on that team.
Again I'm not blaming the girls for getting hit, but knowing the ages may offer the league a push in the right direction, weather its the rule for 3 hit batsman or a rule that says the girls must play in their age appropriate league in 10U softball.
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June 17, 2008
4:45:52 PM
Entry #: 2796192
| go on you tube and see a 4 year old doing the windmill pitch it was beautiful.
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| steve g
June 20, 2008
11:50:56 AM
Entry #: 2800516
| I must correct myself on behalf of my sister....in two seasons at AACO she never hit a batter........she told me I had better let you know that softball maniac or I couldn't use her as a reference anymore =)
Good luck to everyone out there and hopefully more people will get more involved in these discussions in the future for us to make this league the best we can for the girls
Steve G is out for the season.....it's almost football time =)
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| Chuck Robey / NG asst. coach
June 21, 2008
12:04:07 AM
Entry #: 2801422
| I have helped coach for many years from coach pitch at LFYAA through High School eligible girls at NGSC. I have seen girls hit by pitches as pitchers lose control. I have also seen girls hit by pitches, that should have been called strikes but weren't, because their arms were extended over the plate in the strike zone. I have also seen an umpire award a girl first base because she was hit in the arm as she swung at a pitch. (The last two examples were not while we were in the North County League.) And of course I am sure we have all seen the instinctive hand extended to stop the ball instead of the step backward to avoid the pitch from hitting them.
I am not advocating for or against either side in this debate but wish to add that if the league implements such a rule that it be tempered with common sense and the umpires instructed accordingly. We need to be developing pitching, fielding, batting, and baserunning throughout the season. We don't want to over-restrict one aspect so much that no development occurs through the season. If you have played or coached long enough you will remember a season where a pitcher (or pitchers) was lost due to an injury or other reasons and players that had never pitched before had to step up to try fill the void.
If pitchers are consistently wild, it is normally due to a problem with her mechanics and it is best for the coach to remove them as they will not work it out during a game situation. If they were pitching fine and start to get a little wild, it is normally due to the pitcher getting tired, hurrying themselves, or trying to throw harder due to circumstances in the game. Getting the pitcher to take a little more time between pitches or having her slow down the speed to gain control can get her back on track in the latter cases. Neither of these necessarily require the coach to take a trip to the mound.
Pitchers across all the age brackets must also remember they have ten fielders, including themselves, on the field and they shouldn't put the pressure on themselves to strikeout every batter.
Coaches should also keep in mind that alternating between fast and slow pitchers can really throw opposing batters' timing off.
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| Rich Mooney
November 8, 2008
12:44:55 PM
Entry #: 2979746
| In a post on June 6, 2008, Dee states,
"Rich,
You stated "For the record: The batter is awarded first base whenever she is hit by a pitched ball as long as she did not swing, regardless of the speed of the ball or whether or not she tried to get out of the way. If the pitch is coming in at 100 MPH and she raises her hand and blocks the pitch, she gets first base. If the ball rolls toward her at 2 MPH, killing 47 worms before gently touching her foot, she gets first base."
"This hasn't been the case in any of the games
we've played this year. If the ball touches the ground before it hits the batter, she hasn't gotten the base. Also, one girl had a strike called against her because "she didn't make an attempt to get out of the way". Is what you said true? Is it stated somewhere so the umps can see this?"
My reply to her is,
"Dee,
PONY Rules and Regulations, Page 58, Rule 9, Section 2.f.
f. (FP ONLY) When a pitched ball, not struck at or not called a strike, touches any part of the batter’s person or clothing while she is in the batter’s box. It does not matter if the ball strikes the ground before hitting her. The batter’s hands are not to be considered as part of the bat."
I was surprised that no one questioned this statement or refered to the next paragraph:
EFFECT: Sec. 2f: The ball is dead and the batter is entitled to one base without liability to be put out unless she made no effort to avoid being hit. In this case, the plate umpire calls either a ball or a strike.
Therefore, getting back to the whole HIT BY PITCH issue, how much of an uproar would there have been if, when players were injured when hit by pitch, they WERE NOT awarded first base because, IN THE UMPIRE'S JUDGEMENT, they did not attempt to get out of the way! Raising your hand in defense, in the umpire's judgement, could be considered making no attempt to get out of the way.
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