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TOPIC: Tie-breakers |
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| BallGoAway
September 14, 2011
10:12:32 AM
Entry #: 3799421
| I see there is a possibility or a four way tie between Tar, MAS, Bistro and Wing-it. What determines the winner of a four way tie-breaker?
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| Gimme
September 14, 2011
11:16:53 AM
Entry #: 3799480
| Here’s my dream scenario…
- Crupi and DST tie
- Bistro wins
- Wing It beats MAS.
5 teams with 24 points. 3 will be going to the Show, 2 will be in the Connies.
We may not have it figured out before the first playoff game Monday.
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| KLC1
September 14, 2011
1:32:17 PM
Entry #: 3799601
| There is also a possibility of a 3 way tie for first place overall and the overall tie breaker rule seems a bit confusing. Can anybody enlighten us as to their thoughts on it?
Thanks
BJ
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| spectator11
September 14, 2011
2:23:47 PM
Entry #: 3799649
| Just did some number crunching - here's how it'll all shake out tonight.
Although it may look like there are 6 teams that are up for 3 spots - Tar, Crupi, MAS, Wing it, DBS, and Bistro – it is actually only 4 teams for 2 spots. Tar is in, there is no scenario where they are not one of the final 3 teams. DBS is out as they are currently tied for 10th with Crupi but Crupi holds the tiebreaker.
The Wing it/MAS game tonight is huge. If Wing it wins, the division rankings will come down to HEAD TO HEAD RUN DIFFERENTIAL. MAS has a division record of 6-6-2 while Wing it is 7-7-0 (excluding games against each other, which they split if Wing wins tonight) so they are tied on points there. They also have identical records against the other division at 4-5-0. So Wing it must win by more than 8 runs to win the tie break. If they win by less than 8, MAS wins the divisional tie break. If they win by exactly 8 - then its a 5-inning sudden death game.
In the other division, Tar holds the divisional tiebreaker over both Crupi and Bistro based on their division record of 7-7-0 vs Crupi 5-7-2 and Bistro 4-8-2 (assuming a Crupi tie and Bistro win tonight). Crupi holds the tiebreaker over Bistro on head to head points.
If there is a 5-way tie at 24 points (possible!) then things the hairy. If MAS holds the divisional tiebreaker over Wing it, then playoff teams are 8-Tar (hold tiebreak over MAS), 9-MAS (hold tiebreak over Crupi), 10-Crupi (hold tiebreak over Wing it). If Wing it holds the divisional tiebreak over MAS, then playoff teams are 8-Wing it (hold tiebreak over Tar), 9-Tar (hold tiebreak over MAS), 10-MAS (hold tiebreak over Crupi).
So:
MAS and Crupi control their own fate, win and they're in. In that scenario, even if Bistro won tonight, tenth spot would go to Tar as they hold the tie-break over Bistro on division record.
MAS gets in no matter what happens in their game if Crupi loses.
If Crupi ties, they are still in if MAS wins divisional tiebreak. Crupi can also still get in if they lose if MAS wins divisional tiebreak AND Bistro loses.
Wing it is guaranteed to get in if they win by more than 8 tonight. They can also sneak in if they win by less than 8 and both Crupi and Bistro lose tonight. Playoff teams here are 8-Tar, 9-MAS, 10-Wing it.
The only way Bistro gets in is if they win tonight, Crupi loses AND MAS wins the divisional tiebreaker. Playoff teams in this scenario are 8-Tar, 9-MAS, 10-Bistro
I'm basing this entirely on my understanding of the tie-break rules on the league website. In an instance where A/B/C are all tied and A/B play in same division, if A was ranked higher than B in their division then A would be 1st, and the tiebreak between B and C would determine the 2nd and 3rd spots. This also goes for determining first overall in the league.
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| Hammer_9
September 14, 2011
2:30:17 PM
Entry #: 3799655
| Thanks Spectator.....its all so clear now.
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| BallGoAway
September 14, 2011
2:42:54 PM
Entry #: 3799665
| Great work Spectator!!! Crazy how many different outcomes there can still be with only 4 games remaining.
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| winnberg
September 14, 2011
3:27:47 PM
Entry #: 3799707
| Wow...this really shows the parity we have in the league now. After a long season, it's pretty cool to see all these great teams neck-and-neck trying to make the Championship Round. Thanks for breaking it down, Spectator.
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| Web USPL
September 14, 2011
4:13:49 PM
Entry #: 3799750
| Please note the following:
For teams tied in a division at the end of the regular season, the tie-breaker formula is:
1. Head-to-head record (points)
2. Record (points) within the division
3. Record (points) against common opponents on other division
4. Run differential in head-to-head games
5. Coin toss, unless tie is for last Championship place or last Consolation place, in which case a 5-inning sudden death game will be played at the end of the regular season.
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| Mellowing Out
September 14, 2011
6:21:38 PM
Entry #: 3799844
| B.J,
1st place overall has already been decided based on the tie-breaker rules. If you guys win tonight you get second overall, no matter what happens in DST's game. If Kelseys loses and DST wins, DST in second overall. Kelseys would be tied with TL but you would still win the division based on the tir breaker head-to-head pts.
Chris
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| KLC1
September 14, 2011
10:17:17 PM
Entry #: 3799984
| Thanks Chris, just wondering because it does not seem to address a 3 way tie for first.
Are division leaders automatically seeded 1,2 because I did not read that anywhere.
If you could break it down for me how you arrived at that it would be great.
Thanks
BJ
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| Sloppy Seconds
September 14, 2011
10:19:13 PM
Entry #: 3799986
| Just my 2 cents.
Kelsey's, Summit and DST finished in a 3 way tie with 35 points.
The tie breaker rule that applies should be the rule for ties from teams from different divisions. Because the first sub-section of tie breaker rules applies to division rivals only ***26. For teams tied in a division at the end of the regular season, the tie-breaker formula is:***
So we apply these rules:
****For teams tied in the overall standings (used for determining home team in the playoff games and for the next season's draft order) the formula is:
1. Head-to-head record (points)
2. Record (points) against opponents in each other's division
3. Coin toss****
Because Kelsey's was 1-0 against DST and 0-1 against Summit, and Summit and DST were 1-1 against each other the head to head rule wouldn't apply.
Rules for divisional ties should be applied to caclulate a division winner, which would be DST with 23 points within their division while Summit only had 22 points.
The 2nd tie breaker which is points against opposing division by my math is Kelsey's 10 points, DST 12 points, and Summit 13 points.
Therefore the final overall standing should be.
1. Summit
2. DST
3. Kelsey's
I think it's pretty funny that Summit who clinched first overall didn't even clinch their own division by these rules.
However the rules are definately not clear, and should be revised for next season. Because you can't break a 3 way tie with a head to head record, or with a coin toss.
If you were to take the 2 divison winners which are DST and Kelsey's, and follow the tie breaker rules, than Kelsey's would have finished first overall.
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| Knight
September 15, 2011
6:42:09 AM
Entry #: 3800080
| Rule 26 is confusing at best. The definitions presented by Mr. Second seem accurate. The division winners are definitely Kelsey’s and DST.
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| Harry Package
September 15, 2011
9:10:36 AM
Entry #: 3800112
| Anyone figure out the mess that is T8 ???
Does Wing It get in if they win tonight?
Who would drop out?
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| BallGoAway
September 15, 2011
9:25:43 AM
Entry #: 3800121
| If MAS wins tonight then the top 10 teams remain the same.
The 3 possible outcomes that could change things:
A) Wing-it wins by less then 8 runs
B) Wing-it wins by exactly 8 runs
C) Wing-it wins by more then 8 runs
Can anyone Confirm what happens and who makes it in for these 3 results? (is there anyone from the USPL that can confirm this)
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| KLC1
September 15, 2011
9:50:23 AM
Entry #: 3800126
| Hey sloppy, I concur with the last part of your statement, the order in which the rule is written seems to dictate that you sort out the divisional winners first from Gayman and Toogood and then the over all winner between the 2 divisional winners.
In that case, DST wins their division based on a better record within their division and we won ours.
This is where the rule is unclear as to the overall. I believe it should be between Kelsey's and DST in a tiebreak for overall. We would beat DST due to the win the other night. Thankfully we got that 7th inning in with one minute to spare or we would've been tied....Obviously my vote is a bit biased based on the fact it is my team but I do not read anywhere else in the rules where it addresses this clearly. Can it really be interpreted that a team that finishes second in their division wins the overall league title? That is a bit odd to say the least...
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| Sloppy Seconds
September 15, 2011
10:35:05 AM
Entry #: 3800146
| Thank you all for your positive comments!
Based on the way this rule is written there is no clear winner.
My only suggestion would be a head to head match-up or coin toss style 1 game playoff.
Of course there's 3 teams so it would have to be a 3-way game!
Each inning you get 3 outs against both teams. NO MERCY!!!
(This is what happens when the rules aren't clear I guess)
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| Harry Package
September 15, 2011
10:59:01 AM
Entry #: 3800159
| .... how 'bout rock, paper, scissors ???
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| spectator11
September 15, 2011
11:01:16 AM
Entry #: 3800161
| I agree that its unclear, but my understanding of the rules in the event of a 3 way tie are that the divisional tie-breaker rules are applied FIRST to the two teams that are in the same division, then the team that comes out ahead is compared to the third team .
So since DST is the division winner based on divisional points, I assume that they are automatically ranked ahead of Summit and now must be compared to Kelseys. When compared to Kelsey’s, Kelseys won the only H2H game so they clinch first, DST is second and Summit is third.
The second tiebreaker of points against teams in other divisions is only applied to settle DIVISIONAL rankings (not playoff rankings) so I think the fact that Kelsey's had 10 points against the other division, DST 12 points, and Summit 13 points is irrelevant because the divisional tiebreak was already determined by intra-divisional points for DST and Summit.
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| Mellowing Out
September 15, 2011
4:14:01 PM
Entry #: 3800362
| I've looked over the rules and can't see anywhere where it says the 2 divisional winners are ranked 1 & 2. Yes this is confusing. I agree DST wins the division over Summit based on pts. within our division (23-22). Summit beat Kelsey's head to head. So Summit should be ahead of Kelseys since we are tied in points. However Kelseys beat DST head-to-head.
Boat races anyone ??????
And can someone explain this to me. The 3rd divisional tie-breaker. If the teams were tied after the 2nd tie-breaker (points in own division) wouldn't other divisiion points be the same since they have the same amount of points??? Am I missing something here?
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| Playoff Prognosticator
September 15, 2011
6:51:58 PM
Entry #: 3800475
| I have a couple of bizarre scenarios for you.
#1. Tonight at 9:30pm, MAS announces that it is forfeiting the game. Put them down for a 7-0 loss. They then win the divisional based on a better run differential. Then Bistro is in, and Wing It is out.
#2. On the other hand, after the game starts, MAS decides to “allow” Wing It to score a bunch of runs, and MAS ends up losing by more than 8. Then Wing It is in, and Bistro is out.
So in other words, as a team, MAS controls who get in and who is left out.
Feel the power, Normmy!
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| Matches
September 19, 2011
9:49:31 AM
Entry #: 3802129
| What is the deal with Kelsey? The will be gripping the bats tight this weekend. The President’s trophy winner never wins the championship. Too much pressure for boys that are not accustom to winning big games. The results should be interesting.
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